Episode 88 – The Serpent’s Tail (Part 5)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 88 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 5)
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This is the conclusion of our interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon.

Why were Ed Daulton’s last words : “Brother Branham, lied to me. I have been betrayed!” ??

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 87 – The Serpent’s Tail (Part 4)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 87 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 4)
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Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau in this episode. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon.

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 86 – The Serpent’s Tail (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 86 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 3)
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In Part 3, Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon.

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 85 – The Serpent’s Tail (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 85 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 2)
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Why would you ever give this to your child?

In this episode, Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon.

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 84 – The Serpent’s Tail – Abuse in the Park

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 84 - The Serpent's Tail - Abuse in the Park
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The Park

In this episode, Rod interviews Deborah Daulton Thibodeau, the youngest daughter of Ed Daulton. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books and is available on Amazon and directly from Adelaide Books.

In the summer of 1962, about sixty members of several large extended families moved across country seeking a place away from the world to wait for the rapture. They were driven by William Branham’s comments that Rapture was at hand.

They settled in the Pine Lawn Trailer Park (the “Park”) in Prescott, Arizona. They were led by William Branham’s “tape boys”, Leo Mercer and Gene Goad, who had been close friends since college.  Ed Daulton asked William Branham about the planned move and he said at first that he shouldn’t go. Later he changed his mind and said that they should go – “I see it come out alright in the end.”

If William Branham was a prophet, how could he promote a sexual predator and abuser of young children to the position of authority at the Park. Where was his discernment? How could he describe the physical, emotional, psychological and sexual abuse of children as something that comes out “alright in the end?”

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 83 – The Downfall of the Message in Brazil? (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 83 - The Downfall of the Message in Brazil? (Part 2)
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This is part 2 of our interview with Arthur Antunes, the author of “The Secret of the Seventh Angel: The Downfall of Branhamism” which was published in July 2021 in Brazil.

Arthur Antunes is a pseudonym or pen name and the true identity of the author remains a secret. For the purpose of this interview the voice of our guest has been disguised using up to date computer technology.

Followers of the message in Brazil have been rocked by a sexual scandal involving Joaquim Gonçalves da Silva, one of the most well known message pastors in Brazil. The allegations against him came out in June 2021 and he died of Covid-19 in August, shortly after the book was published.

External Links

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 82 – What is happening to the Message in Brazil?

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 82 - What is happening to the Message in Brazil?
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In this episode, Rod interviews Arthur Antunes, the author of “The Secret of the Seventh Angel: The Downfall of Branhamism” which was published in July 2021 in Brazil.

Arthur Antunes is a pseudonym or pen name and the true identity of the author remains a secret. For the purpose of this interview the voice of our guest has been disguised using up to date computer technology.

Followers of the message in Brazil have been rocked by a sexual scandal involving Joaquim Gonçalves da Silva, one of the most well known message pastors in Brazil. The allegations against him came out in June 2021 and he died of Covid-19 in August, shortly after the book was published.

External Links

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 81 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 81 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 3)
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Rod, Emily and Tim conclude their discussion with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

Link to the Testimony of James Manuel

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 80 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 80 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 2)
/

Rod, Emily and Tim continue their discussion with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 79 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 1)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 79 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 1)
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Rod, Emily and Tim interview former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

This interview continues James’ story from where we left off in Episode 52

External links:

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 78 – Pastor Jeff Jenkins – 7 Years Later (Part 4)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 78 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 4)
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Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In the conclusion of our interview, we talk about whether what his advice is to those that have left the message and what the proper approach should be to religion and faith based on his experience since leaving the message.

Links
Finding God in the Waves by Mike McHargue
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 77 – Pastor Jeff Jenkins – 7 Years Later (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 77 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 3)
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Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In part 3 of our interview, we talk about whether he has had any contact with other message ministers since he left the message and how his ministry has developed over the past 7 years.

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 76 – Pastor Jeff Jenkins – 7 Years Later (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 76 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 2)
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Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In part 2 of our interview, we talk about what has surprised him most since he left the message.

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 75 – Pastor Jeff Jenkins – Seven Years Later (Part 1)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 75 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - Seven Years Later (Part 1)
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Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. Rod Bergen and Tim Kraus talk to Jeff about:

– What have been the biggest changes in his thinking since he left the message 7 years ago?
– What has surprised him most since he left the message?
– Has he had any contact with other message ministers since he left? 
– How has his ministry developed since he left the message?
– What is his advice to those that have left the message?
– What is the proper approach to religion and faith based on his experience since leaving the message?

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 74 – Talks with Tim – Donny Reagan Gets Excited

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 74 - Talks with Tim - Donny Reagan Gets Excited
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This is the first in a new series that we are going to be doing called Talks with Tim.  Tim Kraus, as our regular listeners know, is one of the co-hosts on Off The Shelf.  If you would like some background on Tim, please listen to episode 61 where we talk to Tim at length about his experiences with the message.

We get people who send us video links on occasion.  And some of them are, honestly, so disturbing, that we feel we need to respond to them.  This podcast is one such response. 

Related video link – Donny Reagan Gets Excited

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

Episode 73 – The 2020 Debate (Part 7)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 73 - The 2020 Debate (Part 7)
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This is the conclusion of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. The discussion focused around this agreed issue:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

This episode is comprised of the closing statements of both Jesse Smith and Rod Bergen.

The following is a transcript of part 7 of our discussion:

Episode 72 – The 2020 Debate (Part 6)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 72 - The 2020 Debate (Part 6)
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This is part 6 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. In this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

  • If William Branham’s teaching is correct, why do message followers display so little love for those who leave?
  • Why is the fruit of the message so bad?
  • Did William Branham have any valid prophecies?  Three prophecies are specifically considered:
    • First, the immoral condition of the church;
    • Second, that no greater ministry to the Gentiles would rise than William Branham; and
    • Third, that no denomination would ever break up and come back to the word.

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

External links

The following is a transcript of part 6 of our discussion:

Episode 71 – The 2020 Debate (Part 5)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 71 - The 2020 Debate (Part 5)
/

This is part 5 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with the following:

  • If William Branham’s teaching is correct, why did God require Christians in earlier ages to believe false doctrine in order to be saved?
  • Are Trinitarians Christians?
  • Is there clear proof that William Branham lied habitually?
  • Why did William Branham fake that he spoke in tongues?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

The following is a transcript of part 5 of our discussion:

Episode 70 – The 2020 Debate (Part 4)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 70 - The 2020 Debate (Part 4)
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This is part 4 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with

  • Does the Holy Spirit lead a person into the message?
  • Was William Branham lying when he said that he was standing under the Cloud?
  • Does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that God has 3 minds?
  • Did any giants of the Christian faith not follow the doctrine of the Trinity?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

The following is a transcript of part 4 of our discussion:

Episode 69 – The 2020 Debate (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 69 - The 2020 Debate (Part 3)
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This is part 3 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

  • How do we respond to WMB’s failed visions given the clear requirements of Deuteronomy 18:20 to 22?
  • How is this affected by cognitive bias?
  • Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit a separate work of grace, like salvation?
  • Do you have to accept the message of William Branham to be born again?
  • If WMB was the messenger to the church of Laodicea, the Elijah prophet and the angel of revelation 10:7, how could he be so lacking in credibility?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

The following is a transcript of part 3 of our discussion:

Episode 68 – The 2020 Debate (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 68 - The 2020 Debate (Part 2)
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This is part 2 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet.  Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with the King James Version Only-ism, women wearing pants and whether it is OK to condemn people who are not Christians. Jay Cox and Tim Kraus are the moderators of our discussion.

The agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

MusicThe Disease of Conceit by Bob Dylan from the album, “Oh Mercy” (1989) – Available on Apple Music

Episode 67 – The 2020 Debate (Part 1)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 67 - The 2020 Debate (Part 1)
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On September 12, 2020, the first-ever English language debate was held between a message pastor (Jesse Smith of Akron, OH) and an ex-message Christian (Rod Bergen from the Off The Shelf podcast and the BelieveTheSign website). The discussion was moderated by C. Jay Cox and Tim Kraus.

The agreed question for discussion:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

In Part 1, Jay Cox and Tim Kraus introduce the participants followed by the opening statements of Pastor Jesse Smith and Rod Bergen.

MusicWar in my Mind by Beth Hart – Available on Apple Music

Episode 66 – The Seven Thunders – An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 66 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 3)
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This is the conclusion of the interview with Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Book – When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger

MusicLosing My Religion by Lauren Daigle from the album, “Look Up Child” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 65 – The Seven Thunders – An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 65 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 2)
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In this episode, Emily, Rod, and Tim interview Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Rod starts the podcast with an editorial comment on a topic that is getting a lot of play on social media with followers of William Branham – the election of Kamala Harris as vice president of the united states AND the fact that she wore a purple dress at her inauguration.

External Links
The Kamala Harris Prophecy
The FBI report on the Seven Thunders Ponzi Scheme

MusicMan Comes Around by Johnny Cash from the album, “American IV: The Man Comes Around” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 64 – The Seven Thunders – An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 1)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 64 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 1)
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In this episode, Emily, Rod, and Tim interview Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Joseph Coleman preached his first sermon in Eleisha’s grandparents’ home in the early 1960’s, so Eleisha’s knowledge of the Seven Thunders movement dates to its infancy.

MusicMan Comes Around by Johnny Cash from the album, “American IV: The Man Comes Around” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 63 – Introducing Your New Co-Hosts (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 63 - Introducing Your New Co-Hosts (Part 3)
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This episode concludes the discussion with our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt and Tim Kraus about a number of important issues relating to the message.

External links – Article on Pastor Vinworth Dayal from Trinidad

MusicGod Still Loves Me by Andrae Crouch – Available on Apple Music

Episode 62 – Introducing your new co-hosts (Part 2)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 62 - Introducing your new co-hosts (Part 2)
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This episode continues the introduction of our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt and Tim Kraus about a number of important issues relating to the message.

MusicThe Storm Still Rages by Rhonda Vincent – Available on Apple Music

Episode 61 – Season 2 Kick-Off – Introducing Your New Co-Hosts

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 61 - Season 2 Kick-Off - Introducing Your New Co-Hosts
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Season 2 (Episode 61) of Off The Shelf starts with an introduction to our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt (see episode 16) about what has happened to her over the last couple of years and Tim Kraus tells of how he came to the message and why he left.

MusicCall Nobody Here Your Teacher by Don Francisco – Available on Amazon

Episode 60 – An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 4)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 60 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 4)
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Listen to Jay Cox, a message follower, in a conversation with Rod Bergen, a former message believer.  In this conclusion of their interview,, they discuss why someone should follow William Branham and the status is of those who do not follow William Branham.  

Other topics referred to in the interview:

Nik Ripken – The Insanity of God

Dallas Willard – Postmodern Holiness

Music – Blues composition from Band-in-a-Box (Rod Bergen)

Episode 59 – An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 3)

Off The Shelf
Off The Shelf
Episode 59 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 3)
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With apologies for an almost 2 year hiatus, Rod continues his conversation with Jay Cox, a follower of William Branham.  In part 3, they discuss whether William Branham made any real prophecies.  Their discussion includes (click on the underlined links to read further):

Related Links

Music – Blues composition from Band-in-a-Box (Rod Bergen)