Rod Bergen: James, moving to a slightly different subject. Paul talks in second Corinthians 11:4, and says that if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus, other than the Jesus that we preached, [00:24:00] or if you receive a different spirit from the spirit you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, he said, you put up with it easily enough.

And that was a criticism of the Corinthian church. Does the message preach another Jesus? Or as Paul said, a different gospel? What does the Jesus outside the message look like to you compared to the Jesus of the message? What has the transition been like for you and what have you learned? 

James Manuel: Yeah, Rod. Yeah. I have to be careful. In the message, there's a lot of indoctrination and brainwashing taking place. At first, when you are recruited into the message, it appears that the Jesus of the Bible is preached in message churches. It does not take long... You hear statements [00:25:00] like, "We're not talking about the historical Jesus. We are talking about a Jesus of Hebrews 13, verse eight. That's the Jesus. That's the same yesterday, today and forever." And then they would turn around and say, "This Jesus is like one who lived in our generation." This is obviously not the Jesus of Calvary. It was not the Jesus of the Bible, but someone who took his place in our generation. 

Because of this, I have to say the Jesus accepted and preached in message churches was not the one who died for. our sins on the cross of Calvary. It was not the one who rose from the grave on the third day and ascended to heaven to prepare a place for us. The Jesus in the message is one is waiting for them beyond the curtain of time. They are resting on these [00:26:00] words and believe that he will judge this generation.

I reluctantly will have to say, William Branham preached another gospel. He made his followers understand and believe that his message was the Ark. Believing every word he said was the evidence that they had the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And believing his message was the token to be displayed, to qualify them to be part of the bride of Christ and make it for the rapture.
He taught that it was only the bride, and that is people who believe this message, that would make it for the rapture. The gospel message is simple. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

When Nicodemus approached Jesus, the response from [00:27:00] Jesus was, " Verily, verily, I say unto you except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 
Rod Bergen: This is an interesting point, James. And that is which in the debate, the discussion I had with Jesse Smith, he made a clear distinction that someone can be saved, but not born again.
And that is honestly... I believe it is complete heresy. This is not what the Bible teaches. In fact, the Bible only talks about being born again in a couple of places. The rest of it, it's all about being saved. And so if you say... and they have to do this... because to justify William Branham's teaching that you can be in the bride... born again... Or you can be saved, not in the bride, a Christian, not in a bride, a Christian in the multitude outside of the city.

You can be a Christian and saved, but not born again, not part of the bride. 

James Manuel: [00:28:00] That's right. Very, very similar to what Jehovah Witnesses believe. Yup. The 144,000 would be those inside the city and everybody else would be visitors to the city. 

Rod Bergen: It's really interesting because actually the message teaches that there are three different kinds of Christians.

Maybe, and for different kinds of people. They say they're unbelievers, are make believers. And there's believers. William Branham taught that, but they actually then, they actually don't believe that. Because then they say... you can be saved. And then there's another work of grace called being sanctified.

So you can be saved and sanctified, but not filled with the Holy Spirit. Once you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, then you've reached the third work of grace, which puts you into the bride. So there are actually three kinds of Christians. Those who were saved, those who were saved and sanctified, those were saved and sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit.

James Manuel: Yeah. And then there's another group those were friends to [00:29:00] William Branham, people that... 
Rod Bergen: Good to the bride. 

James Manuel: Yeah, good to the bride. And those people don't even have to be saved. And, there's one good example. Rebecca... brother Branham daughter, Rebecca Smith.
Yeah. Yeah. In one of those only believe magazines, she told the story of the neighbor who was never saved. Nothing. And one day she, and she wanted this lady to be saved so much. So she went to a dad and asked him dad, what about, and I forget the lady's name, what about our neighbor? And then brother Branham said, you don't have to worry.

She'd be fine. She'd be over there because she was good to God's prophet. Now I don't know, you know about that. That is really not part of the gospel. 

Rod Bergen: It's not part of the gospel at all. 

James Manuel: Yeah. Yeah, I really don't feel so. So as far as the gospel goes, I think Peter made it very clear when he said repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of [00:30:00] sins.

And that they asked what must we do to be saved. And he gave a straight answer and it definitely had nothing to do with what is taught in the message. So I have to say that the message preach another Jesus and the gospel, not the same as Paul and, it is a very hard pill to swallow.

But Paul also says in Galatians 1:8-9, what happens to someone that preaches another gospel? 

Rod Bergen: Yeah. Which is very sad but you're right. According to the message it's repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and believe in William Branham as your prophet, and then you shall receive the baptism of the holy spirit.

James Manuel: And we say it like that as well. 

Rod Bergen: I know 

James Manuel: that's, as I said, the one today, he says, I believe in God and William Branham is his prophet. You sound like a Muslim. [00:31:00] Yeah. 

Emily Arndt: So it sounds like on your journey, your past 9... 10 years, since you left the message, going from someone who was escorting these message pastors around and really involved in it being a song leader, worship leader, and... I think a song leader is the technical message term, but anyway and then, having a pastor say, oh, don't let him preach 'cause he's questioning. And just hearing, you're mentioning obviously this is what the Jehovah Witnesses believe. So you've really studied a lot and done a lot, but what are some of the biggest changes, I guess in your thinking, since you left the message, 

James Manuel: Emily, for me, the changes in my thinking were manifold. When I was in the message, I was very staunch and I was very strict. I believed church was an orderly place. When you entered the [00:32:00] sanctuary, you had to be quiet. When I visited the nearby church, after I left the message. I was all dressed up in a full suit and tie and like a Pharisee, I went to sit down, opened my Bible and read some scriptures very quietly. 
And the first one that interrupted my quiet time of meditation was the pastor of the church. And, he didn't do it decently, he knocked against my arm. And, he like grabbed me to get up and he said, "How are you my brother, welcome to our church!"

And to me, that was like, it was like blasphemy.... It was like I'm getting to die here because I'm sinning in the sanctuary. I felt so uncomfortable. Yeah. He knew who I was through my daughters, because they met the switch first. But then he started a conversation with me and it wasn't a soft conversation.

Well brother, I'm the pastor of this church. I'm pastor Jeremy and who are you? And I said, you know [00:33:00] what, I'm James Manuel. And I live just round the corner. And he just, at the top of his voice and I was so uncomfortable because I was conditioned to be quiet in the sanctuary. But he kept on talking. And then after he left me, some more people came in and came there and, they just chatted us up and greeted us.

And, I remember sitting there, Emily, in total disgust. I felt faulty. I didn't know what to do with myself. I eventually closed my Bible and I just sat there waiting for the next one to greet them. And every time my response was like, I would greet, but it would be very quiet. "God bless you." and things like that. 

But one thing I noticed was the freedom and love that everyone enjoyed. Something that was never, in the message. Everything was so orderly that there was no love. You're too scared to make a noise. 
You too scared to do anything. [00:34:00] And I, for that time I was very judgmental and I looked down on those people, like a real Pharisee.

And then a few weeks later, they invited me one Sunday afternoon to a praise and worship service. And again, I went in my normal church garb and I got there and I saw all these people, dressed informally. Some of the men had shorts on,, and I looked at this, what have I got myself into now?

And then just before the music struck, right in front of me a girl sat down. Now I remembered this girl from our neighborhood. She was a drug addict. Yeah. And she was like, really? She was a real bad character. And just a month prior to that, she got saved in this church. And here, she was sitting right in front of me.
And as the music struck, Emily, this girl started dancing... like you were in a disco, man. Like real swinging her [00:35:00] body and I'm sitting there, I think to myself, "My god, where am I now?" And I couldn't help. I couldn't sing worth or anything. I just looked at the girl, judging and eventually I couldn't keep it anymore.

I got out of my seat. I left Crystal sitting there and I went to the toilet just to get a breath of fresh air. And while standing there and, deciding now whether I should stay or whether I should just go home, a still small voice just nudged me. And, suddenly I started asking myself, " That girl that you see there. A month ago, you saw, she was a drug addict. Today, she is saved. A month ago, she was dancing for the devil in discos. She was taking drugs and things. Today, she's in church enjoying herself." And then, just looked at myself and then suddenly I started realizing that I [00:36:00] myself had just come out of a whole lot of deception. I myself needed the grace of God.

And, I just asked myself then, "How is it possible that I can judge this girl and justify myself for sitting there and feeling better than her." And I really had to pick up myself and I did a quick silent pray in the toilet. And then I went back to my seat.

And then when I got there, I looked at this girl with completely different eyes. And then I started enjoying the service. I could also then, lift my feet and clap my hands and what I saw there was nothing. And you know what, Emily, that girl actually went from there, she grew in the Lord and six, seven months later this girl became the youth leader in the church.

And even to date, see such a great testimony yet in our neighborhood and in the community and everybody loves it. And yet, I judged her. [00:37:00] And, so with this I learned to change my thinking and be more open-minded. I learned to look at people for who they are and not for what they wear. I learned from others and I had to learn from others and not act as if I knew it all.

I learned to be willing to learn the meaning of scripture from scratch. God was very gracious to me, Emily and I'm eternally thankful for his grace and mercy. 

Emily Arndt: Amen. Amen. Thanks for sharing that. I, what I picked up on and what stood out to me, you said you went from staunch and strict, and then you mentioned freedom and love.
And I think that ties into... a lot of times, the scripture that we hear at weddings is first Corinthians 13, but I think it really speaks to the essence of, what our salvation in Christ is. He. He loved us so much. 
He [00:38:00] died for us. What does that love look like? And how are we to love others?

What is the greatest commandment? To love the Lord, thy God, and to love others as and firstCorinthians 13 says, "And if I could speak all languages of earth and of angels, but didn't love others. I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging symbol. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all God's secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith, I could move mountains, but didn't love others, I would be nothing. 

If I gave everything to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it. But if I didn't love others, I would have gained nothing. Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable. And it keeps no record of being wronged.

It does not [00:39:00] rejoice about injustice, but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith. Is always hopeful and endures through every circumstance. Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless, but love will last forever. 

I just think that really speaks into... That's what I picked up when you're talking... like you saw your neighbor, through the eyes of love for the first time. Thank you for sharing. That was very profound. 

Rod Bergen: It's interesting too... in Galatians chapter five, we hear.... paul tells us... "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then stand firm in our freedom and do not let yourself be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

And what happens is people have taken the message... William Branham has taken [00:40:00] things from the old covenant and brought it into the new. You will find nothing in the New Testament relating to how you behave in a sanctuary. That is a reference back to the temple. 

And so they're treating the new testament church... Actually "church" means called out ones... the ecclesia, they are the people who've been called up by Christ. It's people. It's not a place. Church is not a place. But when Luther translated, he used the word Kirk, which stood for a place.

And so the meaning changed in our minds and became, when we say church, we're thinking place, we're not thinking, actually the biblical reference, which is the people. And you know, I know that the whole issue of people... they're drinking coffee in the sanctuary, what a terrible, terrible thing.

There's nothing wrong with it. 

James Manuel: Right! You have, Emily, [00:41:00] as you would you would know. I set up at home. I was very strict with the girls. I would, when they grew up, I would first, before they go to church, I would stand there and look at them and check the dress, the length of their skirts, the hair, make sure that everything is in place.

And, if there's any moaning I would say to them either I embarrass you at home or I embarrass you at church. So make your decision. But, after I left, and I'm sure my girls told you, is that I've learned to love others just the way they are. And and that is probably one of the biggest things that I've had to learn, not to be legalistic.

But to be realistic and to look at a situation from the other person's point of view, and, there's this, there's so many things that we don't understand about other people, but when you look at that love, when you look at the commitment, when you look at the [00:42:00] motive and objective, then it is much more than hair or dress or any of the countenance.
It is much more than that, because God deals with your heart. 

Tim Kraus: Amen. Amen. Hey James and that's what we gain w hen we go to Christ, as opposed to being caught in the bondage of the message, that's for sure. But, and that's something that we reflect from ourselves, the liberty that we have now in Christ, once we leave the message.

But my question really is what surprised you most, since you left the message, something maybe you never expected, but maybe you came across it in other people, or maybe you came across it in other churches or in other areas. 

James Manuel: Initially when I left a message, it's like it happens to all of us, your friends turned their backs on you. Crystal and I went to a Memorial service of a message believe, who was a close friend of [00:43:00] ours. And immediately as we walked into this room, that preacher changed his sermon. And he started throwing us with rocks and to be quite honest, it hurt a lot.

And at that time we were still very sensitive and vulnerable. And we left that evening, not, I remember sitting next to Keith Herne, the manager of the Voice of God Recordings, here in Cape Town. And he could see that I wasn't a happy chappy because just the day before that the two of us had a conversation. We weren't feeling good at all.

And then we experienced, when we walk in a shopping mall, and you see some message believers, it's almost like those people have been tuned to dodge you, because they would literally move to the other side, just to dodge you. We went to a function of a family member within the message and you just [00:44:00] feel that you're not welcome there.
Everyone gave us a cold shoulder. At funerals, when you get to a funeral and says, "Hi, and bye". Eventually you get used to it, as you realize you no longer part of the club, if I can call it that. 

Tim Kraus: Sure. Yeah. 

James Manuel: But this all changed when my brother-in-law died. That's about three years ago. That message pastor, he's a good friend of ours.
We grew up together in the message. And the family then asked me to pay tribute to Gregory, my brother-in-law. And all the people were standing down, at the bottom because all the message pulpits are guarded. Nobody comes there unless you belong to their church. And for the first time, this message pastor then actually invited me...

He moved away from his pulpit and invited me to stand there in the pulpit, put my notes down and to speak. [00:45:00] And then... but you could see that everybody was on high alert. And I spoke, obviously, I didn't attack anybody because it was all about my brother-in-law Greg. And then I made a few Christian comments and... What surprised me most was, when the service was over, everybody was gathering and he got a group of his men to sit around and they started asking me questions.

And as we were talking, this pastor then suddenly said to me, "I know there's things in the message that's not right. And I know they're certain things that must be, but brother, please, won't you give the message another look? We parted on friendly terms and the very next day, Tim, this same pastor brought his brother, who were visiting, their mom was ill. So he brought his brother, who was an American citizen, he lives in New York, and the two of [00:46:00] them came to my home. And he got here about nine o'clock in the morning. And we sat and chatted about events and happenings in the message from about nine o'clock in the morning, till about 12 noon.

And they wouldn't leave. And eventually we had a nice time of prayer and we left happily. And that to me was probably one of the biggest surprises, after I left the message. What surprised me then more, 
Tim, was about two years ago. I was invited to a group of message brothers, which included a few pastors.
They invited me to a breakfast and this happened just before lockdown, 2020. I had my defenses up. I didn't expect any love from them, but I was pleasantly surprised, how they accepted me and even [00:47:00] allowed me to state my stand. And many of them then agreed with me. Then at the end of that meeting, the brethren came to a resolution that they will only accept what is written in the Bible. And I'm talking about these guys were writing this up in the minute book. Only accept what is written in the Bible and reject anything William Branham or anyone else said that was not aligned with scripture. This is something that I never expected to happen in my lifetime.

Tim Kraus: Yeah, that's huge. 

James Manuel: That's probably one of the biggest surprises. 

Rod Bergen: Maybe carrying on from that. So this, I would consider, from a North American standpoint, that's quite unusual, because what we're finding over here is that most message ministers are on the attack. [00:48:00] Someone said the other day, " This group of message ministers, they're worse than Believe The Sign.

Right? In their view, the worst thing they could think of is somebody who's worse than me. Right? So there's a huge amount of defense of the message and the messenger without actually responding to any of our claims. So it sounds like that the attitude of message ministers, and I assume that's not all message ministers. But it sounds like there is a willingness of some message ministers to basically engage in a dialogue with you and they're not treating you as an unbeliever, the way people in North America... message ministers. One of my best friends said over the pulpit that I'm an unbeliever, right? 
Rod is an unbeliever. Yeah. I'd be interested... Is that a valid statement that, that message ministers in South Africa as a group is different, [00:49:00] or is this just a small subsection of ministers?

James Manuel: It's that, that one is very difficult to say. I think it's there's quite a few of them, but definitely not the bigger names. If you know what I mean. These guys, the one guy that was present in this meeting that I'm talking about, he's actually one of the translators. And I'm not at Liberty to mention his name now, but he's one of the translators, he translates into Afrikaans at voice of God recordings.

And he's a pastor is been a pastor for many, many years. And he's certainly been in the message from the time that I went, when I came into the message, he was already in the message. So it's not, he's not a novice. The other gentleman that was in the same meeting he called himself an apostle, and he passed away recently of COVID, quite sadly, but what I've also experienced, Rod, is in May, when I went on...

When I got to Durban, [00:50:00] I had a note on my phone and there was also a person, that calls himself an apostle, that wanted to check with me urgently. I phoned him, couldn't get him. And then the person that gave me his number said, no, I must continue. I must continue. And eventually I got him. And basically what this man was saying is they're tired of all the lies.

They're tired of all these discrepancies and they want to talk. They want to... and this is now, this is in Durban. And then here's another message pastor in Durban with the same thing. They want to talk. So there's definitely a group here in South Africa that is aligning themselves and they probably just waiting for the right time, and they would move out. There's quite a few message ministers, now, that doesn't even mention the name, William Branham, over the pulpits anymore. They preach the gospel. 

Tim Kraus: Wow, that's very bold for message ministers. 

Rod Bergen: And wonderful to hear. [00:51:00] 

Tim Kraus: That's great to hear, but then they're likely to lose their church. 

James Manuel: That is probably... and that is one of the things that is the big stumbling block these guys have. You've caged yourself in, what is true now, but there's a lot of money involved. There's a whole lot of prestige involved. And it's difficult to get off that high horse.