OTS 92 Charles Paisley transcript

Narrator: [00:00:00] Welcome to episode number 92 of Off The Shelf.

Rod Bergen: Sorry, Larkin Poe for my karaoke version of your song. The original version of the song Preaching [00:01:00] blues is much better. I went to see Larkin Poe a couple of months ago when they were in town. Their tunes are well worth the listen. They do some amazing covers as well as great original music. Under the Halo.

Our new book has received some great reviews and message preachers are even talking about it over the pulpit. Although they don't use the name of the book as they probably are afraid, some of the congregation will go out and read it. However, based on their comments, I don't think any of them have actually read it themselves.

I expect they are much too afraid to. You can find under the halo, examining the legacy of William Branham at virtually every online bookseller. To find the various retailers, please go to my website@rodbergen.ca. I have also recently finished narrating the audiobook version of Alan Hirsch's book, the [00:02:00] Forgotten Ways, reactivating Apostolic Movements.

This book has absolutely nothing to do with the message, but it is an amazing book for those who are interested in how to reactivate the Western Church and return it to the movement Jesus founded. It should be available on Audible, Spotify, and other audiobook retailers in a couple of months. This is part four, the final episode of my interview with Charles Paisley.

Charles was born into the message and grew up in Faith Assembly Church in Clarkson, Indiana, where Junior Jackson. I. Where Junior Jackson was the pastor Charles is currently a minister at the Gospel Church of Jeffersonville, Indiana, where he is working with other former message believers to help people find community and support as they leave the message.

We [00:03:00] begin where we left off in part three. Uh, searching for vindication. Posted the newspaper report in the 1933 baptismal. Service. So you've done some work on that, and I think, I mean, you could tell us specifically what you found out with respect to the 1933 baptismal service.

Charles Paisley: Right. So, uh, like you said, it, it's what other people had first researched that kind of set me off down that path.

You know, when I saw on the Searching for Vindication website, the newspaper article about the 33 baptism, and it was not what William Brown said it was supposed to say. By a long shot. Um, uh, I, I decided, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look into, as I mentioned in the past, I was, I was interviewing, kind of casually interviewing all of the eyewitnesses of William Branham and, and, and the Tabernacles old days, um, in our, in our, in our fellowships.

Uh, because, uh, my main reason was. [00:04:00] I wanted to have some evidence for the future, for when all these people were gone so I could, you know, have something to try and stand on to, you know, prove the validity of William Brown in the message. And so, one of the questions that I, I would always ask everybody was, um, do you know anybody who was at the 1933 baptism?

That was something I'd asked. And through that, I, I uncovered that there were three people that had. Come to our church and been known to our church who were at the 33 baptism and so, and so, once I, once I had kind of uncovered that as well, I would ask, uh, do you remember what these people told you about the 33 baptism?

And so from that, uh, I was able to put together their testimonies, right. You know, maybe the mouth of two or three witnesses. I was able to get what each one had told us about the baptisms. And, and the three people who were at the baptisms that were known to people at Faith Assembly was one was a woman named Fannie Wilson.[00:05:00]

The other was, uh, William Branham's, brother Doc Branham, Edgar Branham. And, um, some of the Brena family came to Faith Assembly. I, I don't know if you, if you knew that they came off and on to Faith Assembly and, uh. The, the third one was Graham Snelling, who had been assistant pastor, uh, at the Tabernacle in the fifties.

And so everybody, several people, I'll put it that way, each remembered William Branham or the accounts that they had heard from those people. And Fannie Wilson was the most prominent one. Brother Jackson actually had a written copy of her testimony, and so the, the sum total of it is none of them saw a light.

None of them heard a voice. The size of the crowd was completely exaggerated when he told it. Uh, but there was some, something, something happened that day in the sense there was a loud bang or a loud noise that frightened the people. And that was really the only [00:06:00] outstanding thing that happened that day that, that any of them noticed.

Um, but no one saw a light. No one heard a voice. And, and so that, that really left me troubled. And, and the most troubling thing of all is that's when I found out consistently with every person that Graham Snelling had been ran out of the tabernacle almost immediately after he had confronted Brother Branham over, uh, him exaggerating that story.

Right. Uh, so I found that to be, you know, very unusual, very something to question.

Rod Bergen: So you present some pretty compelling evidence, uh, and we've got a lot of it on our website as well. I believe the sign that William Brown lied about his early life, the death of his wife and daughter, and a lot of other things.

I, I, I mentioned earlier that I read this book on cognitive dissonance called, um, um, mistakes were made by [00:07:00] Not, but not by Me. It has a very, very interesting chapter on false memories and how we, how, how there are people with like astounding false memories, like people who've been abducted by aliens and you can't convince them that this didn't happen.

And they can go under lie detectors and they will pass the lie detector test. Um, and. I, my, uh, uh, the way I kind of think, and I'd be, be interested in what you think about this, I think that William Branham was trying to make some sense out of these catastrophic, terrible things that happened. And out of that, he constructed what he may have believed that they were true.

I can't say that 'cause he's not around. But they're just not true. They were false. They're not [00:08:00] true. But he would tell them and not feel like he's telling a lie. Uh, 'cause he was trying to, I mean, I can't imagine losing your wife and your young daughter and the psychological impact that that would have.

And if you're trying to serve God and say, well, I'm. Maybe this happened for a reason. What's the reason? And out of it, you concoct some kind of. A false memory. I don't know. Right.

Charles Paisley: See, I, I, I know people who knew William Brenham, uh, you know, in the year that his wife died and, and they, you know, share the great, he was in really a, a very, very depressed sorrowful state at that time.

Um, one person who went to our church, they had invited him out to come over to their. Their mother-in-law's house for Thanksgiving dinner to try and cheer him up even, you know, during that time. But he was still preaching and holding revivals and stuff through that period. And, and so maybe I, [00:09:00] we've have, you know, some extra insight into there that, that could be interesting to talk about.

But, you know, I, I, again, it's, it's hard to know the why, right? And I. I kind of go back and forth on why, um, but at the end of the day, you're, you're spot on. Accurate, regardless of what the, why is. The story he told us is not true. It's false. Yeah. Um, he was a Pentecostal preacher from day one. His wife was a Pentecostal.

Her funeral was at the Pentecostal Church. Uh. Uh, God didn't kill them for not being Pentecostals. Right. And so the whole, it just does not make sense. The story that he tells. Right. She did not die during the flood.

Rod Bergen: No.

Charles Paisley: Um, and the whole, you know, there's some truth there, but most of the key facts that matter to us from [00:10:00] a interpretive perspective of the message are

Rod Bergen: false.

Are

Charles Paisley: totally bogus. Yeah. Yeah. Totally bogus. Yeah. And, and, and it's demonstrably so,

Rod Bergen: yeah. Uh, I, uh, interviewed, uh, Deborah Dalton Teboda recently on Off The Shelf. Uh, regarding her, I. Experience as a child being abused by the Tate boys.

Charles Paisley: Yeah, that's horrific. We had people at Faith Assembly who were in Leo's Park and were abused by him as well.

Those stories are true. Yeah, and it's

Rod Bergen: absolutely horrific and, um. William Branham stated repeatedly that homosexuality was a perversion. Yet our research and your research, uh, which you've done, uh, some detailed stuff, has conclusively shown that William Branham constantly associ associated with homosexuals.

[00:11:00] Is there any explanation for that?

Charles Paisley: Y you know, I, I have never heard an explanation that makes sense to me. And, you know, for, for me, these, these rumors have been kind of whispered behind the scenes for decades and decades. There, there's a, there's an old message preacher who, from our part of the message, brother Branham, talks about him on, on tape quite a bit.

He's still living, so I won't, won't say his name at this time, but. In the 1980s, he started to share these homosexual rumors with quite a few people. And that, that's how, uh, that's how the awareness of that, I guess some of it came to me and, and to others. And, you know, he ended up more or less leaving the message as far as I know, uh, I don't really think he believes the message anymore, but, you know, they're the, just these questions and, and basically, you know, it was that.

When William Branham would go on his hunting trips, there were times that [00:12:00] the majority of the people on his hunting trip were homosexuals. He was going out on a majority homosexual weekend hunting trip, week long hunting trip. And so it, it, it was really unusual. Right? And the same thing, you know, no one had, no one, I, I really asked to about this really had any explanation as to why, why he was doing this, uh, or even what the, what the logical explanation to it would be.

Rod Bergen: So, um, another thing you've got on your website is some significant intersections between William Branham and Jim Jones, uh, you know, and Jim Jones, as everyone know, LED 909 people to the deaths in Jonestown. Jonestown. How were these things hidden? Uh, is this the blank spot on the tape, ed?

Charles Paisley: I think it froze up there just a second in, in our part of the message.

It wasn't really hidden. Um, I would say it was hidden in [00:13:00] plain sight. So Brother Jackson, uh, maybe let me back up. So in, in the 1980s, there was a book that came out by a man, um, who, who was actually at Joe Jonestown, I think it's Tom Reman. And in the, this book that he published in the 1980s, um, he actually connected Jim Jones back to William Branham in this book.

And. About that time, um, that it started to make its rounds in the Jeffersonville area, brother Jackson decided he was going to one church service. Tell us all about Jim Jones and the, and, and when he was in the meth. Right. Brother Jackson, like confronted these things head on. Head on. Right. Head on. Yeah.

And, and tell you this, this was all the will of God, right? And he was good at it. My goodness. It, he was good at it, rod. Uh, he was very good at it. And, uh, uh, so, so one service, he, he, in the evening, I have looked, and looked and looked for this [00:14:00] tape, and I can't find it on tape, but I, I still remember it. And he, he went through and he told us about the times that he had been to the meetings where Jim Jones was at.

Um, and he didn't tell us the full scope of it. He kind of downplayed it all, but that he had been in the message and he said that God put men like Jim Jones around the message. Because he was a scarecrow and there was good wheat in the field, and God put up the scarecrows to scare away the, the birds from getting the good grain in the field.

And I, I thought that was a great explanation. You know, when he gave that Jim Jones was a scarecrow. Yeah. To keep away the, of

Rod Bergen: course, when you're in it, cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Says, oh, here's an explanation. I'll have to buy it. 'cause now it completely eliminated the dissonance. Because you've got a good explanation.

Charles Paisley: Yeah, exactly. And so of course I look back now, rod, that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:00] Why in the world, you know, that just does not make any sense. Right. So, uh, yeah. Uh, I so it, I would say it was hit in plain sight in our part of the message. And here's the thing, I think Jones was actually most connected to the churches in our sec of the message.

Maybe that's why the rest Oh yeah. Okay. Know as much about it. Right. Uh, because the, the three churches I, I do know he is connected to, were, were in fellowship with us, and I don't think we're in fellowship with the rest of you all, at least at the time I knew it. Um, but, but sure enough, you know, we, we've uncovered, um, I went out to Oral Roberts Library, um.

To kind of, I was digging through magazines and Jim Jones' name is advertised right next to William Branham for roughly three years in a row. Uh, three years in a row in the Herald of Faith Magazine with all their tours together and stuff. Wow. Um, and so you have that and, and, and he was a, he came into William Branham's or through Joseph Matson [00:16:00] Bosa.

Yeah. And. You know, his letters are out there where he actually does the introduction of, of William Branham to Jim Jones. Uh, and then just through some personal knowledge I have of, of people who knew Jim Jones when he was in the churches, um, you know, I just pieced together a little bit. No, I don't think William Branham is responsible for No.

What happened in Jonestown? No, nothing like that, but. You know, I don't know why. Well, I mean, I guess I do know why they don't wanna tell us the truth about it. All right.

Rod Bergen: Well you have to question the discernment that William Brown had,

Charles Paisley: right? Yeah. Right. 'cause how come he didn't know what he was doing? And did you read the letter?

So this is so ironic. The letter where Jim Jones is introduced to William Branham, it says, quote Brother Branham, you are going to love the spirit that is in Jim Jones. I. Unquote.

Rod Bergen: Wow. [00:17:00] Yeah. What spirit is that? Just,

Charles Paisley: uh, yeah, right. House. Come. Brother Branham didn't discern the spirit that was in Jim Jones.

No, that's exactly right.

Rod Bergen: And yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, quite surprising 'cause that goes back to all the, Lee Vayle said that William Branham knew that the Tate boys were homosexuals. So if he did. Cor, of course, this is Lee Vayle saying, oh no, William, William Brown's discernment was wonderful. There was no issues with his discernment.

He knew they were homosexuals. Well, then why did he set up Leo Mercier, gene Goad as the leaders of the park,

Charles Paisley: and why did he go on all these private hunting trips with him?

Rod Bergen: Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a question that has to be asked.

Charles Paisley: Yeah.

Rod Bergen: So, um, another thing that I, I know you've dealt with and we've published on our website, the [00:18:00] Failed Healings.

The Failed, Thus sayeth the Lord of, uh, the healing of Donny Morton and Agnes Shippy. Uh, Donny Morton's sister told me, uh, I talked to her on the phone, that nothing that William Branham said about her brother being healed was true. Nothing. Yeah. Um, how many other failed healings are you aware of? And, and were any of these healings given under William Braham's, Thus sayeth the Lord?

Charles Paisley: So I, I kind of kept a rough tally, uh, when I, I was doing my research and, um, I didn't keep the evidence for every single one of them, but I kind of tallied them as I went and I came up with 162. Um, reported cases of failed healing. Um, a

Rod Bergen: hundred sixty

Charles Paisley: two a hundred and sixty two, and about a th about, probably a third of that too comes from cases reported just in two books.

Uh, [00:19:00] part of 'em would be the ones that are reported by Alfred Po. Alpha po. Yeah. Yeah. And then the, the other big chunk would come from a book by a man named Wyman Miller, and it's primarily looking at the South Africa Healing campaign. And there's, there's, there's a substantial number in that book that are report on, so that, that's the biggest chunks of it.

But besides that, there's other odds and end ones I found just through time and through my own personal knowledge, like I, I know. For example, I mentioned Glen Funk, right? Yeah. Uh, and his, his sons. But there's, there's a, a, uh. What the right word. There's a, there is a variety of promised healings to people still in my church from William Branham that have yet to come to pass.

Oh, really? Yeah. There, there's, there's not, that's not the only ones. William Branham gave personal prophecies and personal promises to all kinds of people. Well, I, and, and we talked about

Rod Bergen: that. We talked about that when I was, uh, talking to Deb Tido, because, you know, her dad's [00:20:00] statement on his deathbed was William Branham.

He, uh, he lied to me. I've being betrayed.

Charles Paisley: Right. But the, so there, there's a whole bunch of them like that, that, you know, I, I can, there's not really any solid evidence that I can give that brother Branham actually gave the prophecy, other than these people are convinced that they received personal promises from him.

Right. Yeah. I I have no reason to doubt him. Yeah. But the, the most well documented one that I know personally, rod, um, is the case of Carol s Strubler. And I, I shared this out with some people. Yeah. Uh, about a year ago. And so, uh, again, when I did all my interviews with people, um, she was a case that actually was told to me several times over by people, this was a big deal when it happened.

And for hers, it is the most well-documented case I'm aware of because one, we actually have it on video, not just on tape. [00:21:00] We have, we have the newspaper interviews with the mother and the family, and we also have William Braham's private reaction to what happened. 'cause he told Brother Jackson, uh, uh, his personal reaction to what had happened afterwards.

So for me, it, it's, it's the. It's the premier evidence case. It's got more than anyone I other one I know now when he prays for her, he doesn't say Thus sayeth the Lord. You know that's missing.

Rod Bergen: Yeah.

Charles Paisley: But he does say he invokes with the divine gift being ministered by an angel. And when he's done he says, go and be well.

And he goes and write me a letter and. The, in the newspaper interviews, the mother says, William Branham assured me my daughter would live. You know, it's all, it's all on tape. You know, somebody can go look at it themselves. And the, the thing of it is, is William Branham admitted to Raymond Jackson that his gift didn't work [00:22:00] when she, when she was prayed for, like, he admitted that to him.

Uh, brother Jackson had went over to his house one day just shortly after that happened, and. This is all on tape too, brother Jackson telling about this. And William Branham was very depressed. He said very sad. And said, I'm never gonna use the gift again. It just don't work right. It just don't work. Right.

I'm never gonna ask God to anoint me for this gift again. It just don't work. Right. And, you know, confessed that it did not work. Yeah. I mean, what, what more, what more evidence does a person need than William Brown's own confession? Right. So I. That, that's, that's the best case I know of A best example if someone wanted to look at it.

Rod Bergen: So, um, another article I think that you talk about, um, or maybe it's not on your website, but I, I know we've talked about this. How common do you think [00:23:00] abuse is in the message? I, it's abuse. Uh, covering up of sexual abuse caused me to start questioning the message because I could not come to grips with it in the church of my pastor.

Lying to me about it even worse was other ministers in the message who were presented evidence that the pastor, our pastor, had covered up the sexual abuse of a minor. They would not even look at it, which is why I know they're not looking at any of the, any of the stuff that we presented. They, they, they are, I, I don't know.

They're afraid to, they're doing their own thing and they're very financially successful, a lot of them. And they don't want to endanger their payroll check for anything. And I know abuse has happened at Ha Valley Church in Tennessee. How common do you think it is?

Charles Paisley: [00:24:00] You know that, that's a, a question. You know, I, I honestly can't speak outside of the churches and the places I'm familiar with, you know, other than to guess. And I hate to cast, you know, cast dispersions and, but

when my eye started open Rod, um, very much like you, I. Became aware of a lot of abuses going on around me, and I am aware of, uh, I'll give you one example. I'll choose some people who are all dead about that.

Rod Bergen: That's a good one.

Charles Paisley: Okay, so, so there was in, in Montreal in I think 19. 74, might have been 78. I, I'd need to look to see the exact year.

There was a certain preacher there, and this preacher before he had been in Montreal, he had been in the, in our part of the message, the Jackson part. And [00:25:00] he was a child molester. Um, he molested multiple children. One, one committed suicide. Uh, he. Was not reported to police. Nothing was done about it that, so he was, he left and he went over to this other church in Montreal that's in, uh, uh, Joseph Coleman's group, the Thunders.

And he does the same thing there. He molests kids in, uh, in, in the Coleman church. Coleman. Coleman finds out about it. Same thing. Nobody reports it, nobody does anything. Um, he's just asked, go away and go away. He does. And by this point. Uh, message leadership everywhere knows about this man and what he's done, right?

I mean, Coleman knows Raymond Jackson knows, you know, the reports have just went everywhere. You know, many, many, many, many message preachers knows what this man done. And, and in one of his victims says, committed suicide rod. So he goes to, uh, another message, church, and the pattern repeats. This man lived his entire life in [00:26:00] message churches, and he died and had his funeral in a message.

Church Rod. And nobody anywhere turned him in. Ever. Not even the children's parents, you know, like it's, it's like the park rod.

Rod Bergen: Yeah.

Charles Paisley: The parents don't even do anything about it. And so it, it's, you know, it's almost a, it's a terrible situation. And so how widespread is it?

It's touched the majority of message churches I'm aware of. Yeah.

Rod Bergen: And I, I, I, I don't think, I mean, and, and certainly I know message priests, preachers constantly, um, castigate the Catholic church and denominations, but I, I don't know there's any reason why it is any less common. In the message that it is in any other church and it, it certainly is.

I don't know how common it is, but it gets covered up and [00:27:00] that's the problem. I mean, in our case, the pastor knew about the sexual abuse of minor and didn't tell the parents, right? I mean, that's just sick beyond degree,

Charles Paisley: right? It it, it's almost impossible to deal with abuse in the message, especially when it is.

In leadership. Yeah. Uh, it, it's just, it's impossible. The, the message is structured in such a way that makes dealing with abuse impossible. And William Branham is responsible for structuring it that way. Yeah, no,

Rod Bergen: exactly. That is exactly correct. There is no accountability for pastors. There's no accountability structure.

Um, so you're out of the message now. Um. A, and this is a personal question, but I know I've talked to people, uh, ministers who've come out of the message about this, and that is, how do you feel, uh, is there any guilt for teaching what you did while you're in the message? And, and [00:28:00] I know that's a hard question, but the, it takes what you've done, uh, what Jeff Jenkins did coming outta the message, uh, Lance Larou, others that have come out.

A huge amount of courage when they ministered, preached in message churches and then say, you know what? I was wrong. That takes a lot of courage.

Charles Paisley: Yeah. You know, I, I think for me, uh, the fact that, you know, I was preaching, you know, less than 10 years, uh, at the point in time that I left, so I. And once since I was in deep, but I wasn't in as deep as others have been and people that've been in a lot longer than me have come out of the message as well.

Yeah. So, you know, it can be done, but at a certain point, like once, once, once you become aware of the abuse and that, that's the hardest, the abuse is harder for me. [00:29:00] Even in the things that we taught because you know, it's one thing to, you know, it's okay to. I'm not gonna be angry at someone that wants to believe a fairytale, right?

Yeah. You wanna believe Cinderella, you wanna believe the three little pigs. I mean that Godhead, but when you hurt people in the name of the Three Little Pigs and you hurt people in the name of Cinderella. Yeah. That's the problem. Right? And people are hurt in the name of this thing. Um. And that's the part that is very hard is the times that I saw and I maybe couldn't have done.

I, at a certain point, I just look back and could I have done more? Could I have done more? And I don't know. Right. And I, I just have to ask God to, to forgive me, you know? Yeah. For some of those things. And, uh, hope, try do my best to move on and, and make amends for it. Yeah. And part of it is telling the truth now.

Rod Bergen: My, my son, uh, when, [00:30:00] you know, he phoned me up. This was not that long after, you know, I got showed the door and, uh, and he left. He phoned me up and he said, dad, we've been promoting. He said, I've been promoting false doctrine on my website. And so he said, I need to make amends. And that was one of the reasons why we flipped the, the website over from being, you know, pro message to being anti or telling the truth about William Branham and.

He, he counted and asked me to give him how many people had accessed the website while it was pro Branham. And then he was interested and actively involved the website. And when we hit, you know, we kind of passed the, uh, the mark of the number of people we've had. Well over a million people come to our website since we.

Flipped it over, um, [00:31:00] and it became, um, independent and objective. Uh, but when we hit that point, uh, he basically said, I'm pulling back. I, I've made my amends. Uh, I can't spend my time on this anymore. And so I basically took it over for him at that point in time. But, uh, yeah, yeah,

Charles Paisley: part, part of the, you know, part of my.

Reasoning and rationale and and passion behind the, the church that we've, we've started, uh, the little mission work we're doing there is, is part of that. You know, I, I really want to do something to offer people some hope, uh, a, a place of comfort, a place they can come and be loved and have compassion and.

Find the things that maybe we're missing a little bit. Yeah. From the places that they've come from. And so, uh, that, that's part of how I, I, I hope to, uh, to move forward.

Rod Bergen: Yeah. And we've done some things. I mean, we've got a group on Facebook, [00:32:00] uh, that I set up a number of years ago where, and it's ex message Jesus followers.

It's people who've left a message. And a lot of people just say, I don't want to have anything to do with. Any kind of religion anymore. But, but we try to, uh, create a support group for people who may not have a, a church like you do. Uh, 'cause there are a few of them, but not very many. I.

Charles Paisley: Yeah, there, there's, at this point there, there's a fair number of ministers that's left, um, around the world.

Obviously, you know, we're not on every street corner or anything like that, but there, but, and it keeps growing.

Rod Bergen: Thankfully.

Charles Paisley: It is. Yes, it is growing. Uh, I think the exodus from the message has been really big rod over the past couple years. Yeah. Um, and maybe it's just because I'm on the other side of the fence now.

I don't know. Well, it, I really think that's true. It,

Rod Bergen: it's, it's been going on for a long time. Mm-hmm. It's been going on for a long time and I, I will never forget, and I've told this story [00:33:00] before, but the first person, uh, who sent a, an email when we, when we flipped the, the website over and he was showing all the signs of cognitive dissonance, he was.

S actually nauseated. He was physically ill. Oh yeah. And he said, I got all these questions. I said, look, why don't I just call you? And, uh, I was in Hawaii at the time and I spent, I spent probably a better part of two hours with him talking through it. 'cause he, it is just so devastating to him personally.

Charles Paisley: Yeah. You know, as time goes on. Their suc, they, what they tend to do on the inside is just move those goalposts. So the things that were problems that would've really helped people a while back, they've. They've come up with explanations and more cognitive dissonance for some of that. But then new stuff comes out and Yep.

And it keeps adding to the pile and, and keeps things, uh, keeps helping people get out. And so I, I think it's [00:34:00] good to we that we just keep continuing this work of getting the word out there and helping people, uh, find an exit.

Rod Bergen: Yeah. So what's happening now in the Jackson movement? Obviously you are, uh, leaving, I would expect, has had some ripples.

Um,

Charles Paisley: yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I, I disappeared when I left. I mean, I, I did my best to hide. I, I thought maybe if I did that they would leave me alone. Uh, but yeah, you know, it didn't work that way. Uh, they, I mean, they just, I. Uh, it, it's crazy, rod. It's crazy. So, no, they didn't leave me alone. And I mean, they just harassed me for months and months.

And so finally, you know, I'm, I'm here I am. But things are, things are happening on the inside. I believe the movement as a whole is, I feel like it's a dying group. Yeah. As it is. Um, the, the end of the world. Predictions keep getting wrong over and over and over again. It's had a [00:35:00] really. Disastrous effect.

Um, and, and then the way that everybody's divided so terribly into all these groups, it's, it's hard for the youngers to even find people to marry anymore and continue to sustain it. And, uh, and because, because of the end of the world beliefs, there's never anything put into the next generation. Yeah. To keep going, right?

Yeah. So, so the average age of the preacher is probably 75 or 80, you know, in our, so it, it's very hard. It's very hard to see how it sustains itself. Yeah. For two very much longer. And, and, and the thing is, every time the end of the world prediction comes wrong, they become crazier, rod. They get crazier and crazier.

Well, that's what

Rod Bergen: cognitive dissonance creates.

Charles Paisley: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's what I found was really good about this book. Yeah. Is it actually explains why things get worse every time. The prediction, uh, turns out well, and

Rod Bergen: I made a prediction, it [00:36:00] wasn't a prophecy, but it was a prediction. Uh, back in 2012 when I read that book and I said, I told my son and I published it on our website, is things are going to get more cultish.

The message is gonna become crazier and crazier. And it is. There's, there's stuff now that I hear message preachers say over the pulpit. They never would've said 10 years ago.

Charles Paisley: Yeah. Even where I come from, we were never, the Jackson group was never real. I mean, we, we talked about Brother Branham, but we never put very much emphasis in a regular basis on him.

But since this stuff has come out and I've left it. It's went not, I think wall to wall, William Branham is, is the sermons. It, it's just, uh, an incredible shift as they, as they kind of double down on those things.

Rod Bergen: So I, I wanna ask one last question of you, Charles, and that is, [00:37:00] um, which I try to ask all of, of the people who, particularly ministers who come on the podcast, and that is.

Um, with respect to those who are still in the message, what's your view of them?

Charles Paisley: Well, I would say first and foremost that I love them very dearly. They are my dearest friends and family rod. Yeah. And that's, they're the closest and best friends I ever had in life. I agree. That's how I feel about the people in the message and at that level, you know, I, I don't see how that'll ever change.

Um, I, I still believe that. The part of the message I come from, you know, they, I believe that, you know, I had a, a very good friend who very good friend to me who died just this past week, you know, and of course we can't go to the funeral because they viciously harass any non-believer who goes to the funerals.

But, you know, I was thinking how. Here [00:38:00] very soon. You know, when we cross over, I'll, I'll get to sing with him again in heaven because we used to sing together in church. Yeah. So I still believe most of them are, are Christians and are saved, you know, I, I believe there's bad apples at the top in some cases.

And I believe some people have been blinded to Jesus though, and maybe haven't found true salvation. And I, I think it's especially worse in the ones that have, uh. You know, elevated William Branham.

Rod Bergen: Well, it, it's becoming more and more, uh, uh, and, and, and so I don't know where this ends up. Um, it, it, this could, I think it's, it, it is shrinking and will continue to shrink, but, uh, there's examples, uh, I think from the second century, second or third century ad.

It's a guy by the name of Montana who sounded a lot like William Branham. And, and of course he took all these people and they all gathered around him and, you know, he made some [00:39:00] predictions and some prophecies and, uh, um, none of which came to pass. And then he died. And if you went back a hundred years after his death, there were still people there following his message.

But, uh, 200 years later, they were all gone.

Charles Paisley: Yeah, so I, I think within a, another 10 years or so, there'll probably be few, very few living witnesses of William Brown. I'm left alive. Yeah. And I, I think as, as they are gone, that's gonna have a big impact and, and the younger generation will. You know, was it, there's just gotta, it just don't make sense anymore.

The message don't make sense anymore after William Bna is gone and every living witness of him is gone and, and they're almost there.

Rod Bergen: Yeah.

Charles Paisley: Will they still be something crazy and dangerous? They, they might be, but I think they're definitely gonna shift away from William Branham as as time goes on. Yeah.

Like, like you see with [00:40:00] the ones with their prophet Rodney is his name and not me. Different ones. Yeah. Not you. No, no.

Rod Bergen: Charles, thank you very much. Uh, I really, um, appreciate your taking the time to talk to our audience. Uh, appreciate what you're doing with setting up your church. And the website you've got will link up to it so that, uh, people will be able to find, uh, your, uh, the information and the research that you've done, which is very important.

And so really, uh, appreciate all that you have done and are doing, and, uh, appreciate. The friendship that we've, uh, I wish you were a lot closer. I'd be coming to see you on a regular basis, but, uh, thank you again.

Charles Paisley: Yeah, well, I, I appreciate your friendship too, rod, and, uh, it, it's great. Let me thank you for, for your website.

Let me Thank you also, especially for the Off The Shelf podcast. You know, I. Uh, it got me through some dark days [00:41:00] listening to the other people on this podcast, and, and, and one of the biggest reasons I wanted to do this for you was thinking about, uh, people who might come after me that need, need something to see them through the, through those hard dark days when they need to feel some comfort and be reminded that they've made the right choice.

Yeah. So I hope that helps.

Rod Bergen: Yeah, no, and I, I'm sure it will. I, I had a, um, email that I got from a man. I don't know, I can't remember his name. I've never met him. I don't know who he is. But he sent in a message, uh, an email and basically said, thank you for the podcast. I've listened to four or five of them, and I could on honestly say it's some of the most important time that I've ever spent in my life.

And that's worthwhile. You have, you have someone who reacts to the podcast that way. And it's worthwhile doing it because we're just, we [00:42:00] just wanna help people. We want to help people get closer to the Lord and we want to help people get through the tough times that they go through when they leave.

'cause you know, if somebody said, well, I lost all my friends. Yep. I've been there. And it's, it's not fun. It is not fun. So again, thank you very much. We'll continue to be in touch.

Charles Paisley: Alright Rod. God bless you. Thank you. Bye. Thanks. God bless you.

Rod Bergen: That brings us to the end of our interview with Charles Paisley.

I will probably do a couple more episodes of Off The Shelf at some time in the not too distant future. Also, there will be some new videos showing up on our YouTube channel. See the link below. If you have any questions, please go to the Off The Shelf Life website. There is space for comments and questions at the bottom of each episode.

Or you can send me an email at Rod at Off The Shelf life. Please let us know if there are any issues or [00:43:00] questions that you think we should address or someone we should consider interviewing. Thank you very much for listening, and remember that God loves you and is not afraid of your questions. Have a great week.

Narrator: You wanna get some. Go and join church.

You bad go.

You wanna be a preacher so you don't [00:44:00] have.