Rod: Now I want  want to raise something really funny because somebody actually asked us, this was, this is early on. They said, the squirrels that William Branham created, did they have navels. Did they have belly buttons? You would think that if they were spoken to existence, they wouldn't have any [01:15:00] belly buttons.
So what happened to these created squirrels? And apparently William Branham said, I dressed them and he ate them. 

Jeff: Yep. 

Rod: It wasn't visions, they were squirrels, but if they didn't have a belly button, William Branham, didn't notice it.

Jeff: Nope.

Tim: The kicker is  why they just didn't present themselves as already dressed, ready to cook.  Why in the world did he have to shoot him? 

Jeff: Yeah. I know it. He is. He said visions don't bleed, but because everything he said about the cloud was an absolute lie. I tend to believe that the squirrels... In fact, I don't really have a choice, but to believe that the squirrels was an absolute lie too. I, when he wasn't there, when there was no voices said, look at it, there was no mist that formed at his feet, none of that happened because he wasn't even there. 

Tim: And the embellishment or  the  generosity of the story later on, there were five angels. No, no, no. There were seven angels.   [01:16:00] Nobody heard a sound. This guy said, did you hear that sound, right?  As you go through the retelling of the story, of the embellishments of that story, make it difficult for you to say which one was the actual vision. 
And you're right, if he wasn't there, there was no vision. Now I talked to a message minister just before I left Cloverdale and said, tell me about this cloud thing. And they said, you know what, William Branham was there. He was in a different dimension. He often lived in a different dimension, less convenient.
 
Jeff: It's convenient. 

Tim: Because that means you don't really have to be anywhere particularly to have been somewhere.
 So that means that if you go back to what it says in    First Samuel, as an example,  when Samuel spoke and God let none of his words fall to the ground, 

Jeff: Yeah, 

Tim: And that's how the nation of Israel knew that he was a prophet of God, It wasn't because squirrels showed up. It wasn't because of any of the, it was because God let none of his words fall to the ground. And the [01:17:00] vindication of a prophet as a continuous thing, as opposed to, as something, as it relates to a visitation that you know, that where the circumstances change or he was in a different dimension or he wasn't there at the time. 

Rod: Or even  when Moses disobeyed, God actually fulfilled his words because he couldn't let them fall to the ground. And now Moses had to pay for that. But when he disobeyed God, his words still came to pass.  But now we hear, so why didn't he shoot the brown bear? Well, he disobeyed.

Jeff: right.

Tim: It's conditional. 

Rod: Yeah.

Jeff: See, and that's that circular reasoning that brother Branham constantly used. It was unbiblical. It breaks the principle that God, when Moses spoke or smote the rock he still had to fulfill what the prophet said. Whereas with brother Branham, he could disobey and then it wasn't fulfilled.  Even that man that was told by that prophet, [01:18:00]  God said, don't go that way, go anyway.
And then the prophet tells them, did you this? And the words of that prophet were still fulfilled and the lion did eat him. And yet he was that man that brought that prophet to the other prophet and lied to him. And said, God told me for you to come to stay at my house. And so yet God still fulfilled the word of God at the expense...
So for brother Branham to say, it couldn't be fulfilled because I was with them a bunch  of ministers and they messed me up. And yeah  again, it does not matter the criterion at all for if he's going to use the model of an old Testament prophet, it doesn't match it. And  what I found is interesting  is that, see, that was 1963, the cloud.
And so '73, '83 '93, here we are  almost 60 years later, and churches still discuss the cloud as if  the ink is still wet  on Life Magazine. And  [01:19:00] they haven't moved. They haven't gone on there. They are stuck. They are literally stuck. And it's because it's a message trapped in time.
The message does not have any eternal merit. And unless somebody hears a simple message from William Branham about Jesus and then Jesus saves them. That can happen. But to listen to the theme of a message, it's trapped in lies, it's trapped in time  and it can't live. 
 There was an expiration date a long time ago.  It's this, that people don't realize the milk is similar.
  
Tim: It's we talk about as an example, letting the words fall to the ground and whether or not that    how to make a prophet, then the justification is well, Jonah, he disobeyed God.  We can say that things are conditional because Jonah disobeyed God. The point is not what the prophet does or does not do.
The point is what God does. In the instance of Jonah, he made the decision to go away, but God [01:20:00] had given him a commission,  his message to the Ninevites was going to be delivered. So God brought Jonah to a place where he delivered that message. It didn't matter that Jonah went the other way. It's about  God and his commission is going to be delivered.
 So at the end of the day, when we talk about going to South Africa, or we talk about the brown bear vision and they say  he just wasn't in the right place. It was conditional. If we think God had said, you will have a meeting with 300,000 South Africans in South Africa, Thus Saith The Lord.
And he spoke about that vision 31 times in his ministry. If we think that thus Saith the Lord is really thus Saith the Lord, then there would be nothing on earth that would prohibit God from having William Branham hold those meetings in South Africa, nothing. So it doesn't matter...
It doesn't matter what the guy  in the government of South Africa did to give him only a [01:21:00] certain type of visa. That's not the issue that, cause it doesn't matter what that, it's what God says. That's the issue, 

Jeff: Yep. That's it? And that's the Bible pattern,  that even a prophet can mess up like Jonah did, and God will still fulfill it and he'll fulfill it through Jonah.

Tim: Yep. That's exactly that  because it doesn't matter. Jonah's actions don't matter. It's about what God says that matters. 

Jeff: Yeah. So if God said brown bear and God said 300,000, then brother Branham, according to Bible parallels and Bible principles, Bible laws, that had to be fulfilled. And so when it didn't be fulfilled, it was never of God to begin with. And this is what people can't accept. 

Tim: So we  got off track here.  We were going to talk about some  Jeff and I apologize that I  derailed you on that. 

Jeff: Yeah, no problem. [01:22:00] So we, I think  there was a have number three. It says, how was, how has your ministry developed since you left the message and what are you focused on now? And I would say for me, It's that the people that I have found, it's not something I actually sought out. It's actually just kept falling into my lap.
And that is the people that are leaving the message. And then I'm telling them, they say, what do I do now?  I'm paralyzed. And then I tell them, take the power back.  Brother Branham stole your power, take your power back and understand the power of the Holy Spirit and the individuality. How individual personal that is. That it's not to be a church walk or church system or government, or even a hierarchy of hopes or bishops or pre lates, or it's a personal walk.
There's no pyramid of power, it's you and Jesus. And so I think that it's important    for  people. And [01:23:00] that's what I find myself doing more than anything else is to get them to deconstruct what they were taught. Like the apostle Paul did  in Asia for three and a half years, once you deconstruct, then you take your power back that the Holy Spirit gave you the Liberty and the freedom that you have in the holy spirit.
And then you come to the conclusion that William Branham was not a church age messenger.  That he was  not Elijah. He was not Revelations 10. He wasn't the shout of Thessalonians, the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. He wasn't any of the above. He has zero, zero authority over your life, over your destiny, and you have to take your power back.
And then you have to deal with holiness. The girls have to say, okay, what does God require of me? And then they'll make mistakes. I have to figure things out and nobody can tell them otherwise.   That's the most important thing,  is that the church can not mandate  externals.
 It's not the church's job. Whereas brother Branham said, if a preacher doesn't preach [01:24:00] a clothesline, he's not preaching the gospel. And I can't find that anywhere in the Bible, all I see is to be modest.  And then it's up to the Holy Spirit to teach the individual what that means to them.
 
Rod: I find it interesting, Jeff, that you  comment on how the holy spirit is leading you into things. And this is, I think, critical  that scripture tells us that they that are led of the Spirit, they're the sons and daughters of God. So being led of the Spirit is critically important. And    for me, when I came out of it, the message      I just stopped for a year to try to figure out what it was I believed.
And during that time    Jeremy and I  re-envisioned and redid the Believe The Sign website.  But at the end of that,  I was  asked, oh, would you come down and help us with this ministry? Which as a ministry, I didn't know a lot about. I'd heard about  Campus Crusade for Christ and I said, okay, yeah, I'll come and help you.
And my first five minutes [01:25:00] there, someone approaches me and says, says, oh Rod...  and this is somebody I'd never met before,  one of the donors of the ministry. And he said, Rod, you don't know me but a guy by the name of Peter Duyzer. I said, yeah, I've known Peter for  35 years.
And Peter told me five years ago, by the struggle you and your wife have been going through. And so I just wanted to tell you, I've been praying for you for the last five years. And you're being at Power To Change is an answer, a direct answer to my prayers. How does God work?  Here's someone I've never met before who's been praying for me for five years. And my first five minutes at Power To Change, I am confronted with this individual who's been praying for me and is now witnessing a direct answer to his prayer.  I just left the organization after being there for almost eight years. And for almost six of those years, I've been the president leading that ministry.
And I just think God, you have such a sense [01:26:00] of humor for someone who came out of such a messed up background of the message to go and lead one of the largest Christian ministries in Canada    with  an annual budget of $40 million a year.   It blows my mind, but God has a sense of humor, but he understands.
I just said, God, what do you want me to do? I will do literally anything you want me to do? And he said, oh, how about this, Rod?

Jeff: I had a similar story. I was at a teens for Christ meeting and I'm humbled, broken, and sitting there in tears, watching all these teenagers worship God. And then this guy gets the microphone and  he says, I want to  testify about something that happened to me and this man over here. And he points to me.
And he says, you don't know this, sir. He says, but I live on the same street that your church is on and I'm a jogger. And I would jog by your church every day [01:27:00] and see Believers Christian Fellowship, Pastor Jeff. And I knew this church was out of balance. And he said, I prayed for you every day. I said, God, either deliver that man from this cult or take him out of this church.
And he prayed for me every day, he jogged by the church. Now isn't that incredible? And you're right. It is  God, you are always watching over me. And how humbling it is to use somebody outside the message, who has no superior doctrine, who has no grandiose Holy Spirit experience. And he's just a good old Christian that loves the Lord and he needs going to be instrumental.
God's going to use him to pray for me to come out of the message.

Rod: Wow. Wow. That's God. It is.

Jeff: It is. It's humbling. 
 
Tim: So Jeff,  you've gone through an awful lot. And  I was [01:28:00] reminded of that by Rod, that there were a previous podcast where you and he had spoken and I did go back and look at those. I want to ask you, given everything that you've gone through, what's your advice to those that have left the message about how to start over or  how to be fresh in their faith. 
 
Jeff: I tell you one thing for sure. And it's not easy. And I can't say that I obeyed this or that I honored this entirely, but you can't drop into a shell and stay alone by yourself.  But I will  I confess that for awhile I did. I guess I just felt shellshocked by everything, not only by the people and their reaction, but the fact that I could believe the message for all those years, since I was 16 and find out that I was wrong. And I questioned God.
I said, God, why?  Why would you?  I was so sincere, so devoted and I laid everything on the line for you [01:29:00] for this message to be wrong. And I felt like the Lord just  comforted me by saying, but if you noticed, even when you gave your heart, when you were 16, you didn't give your heart to William Branham.
You didn't give your heart to the seven seals. 'Cause you didn't know anything about them. You didn't give your heart to serpent seed, cause you didn't know anything about it. You simply needed me as your savior. And I can say by the grace of God that Jesus did get a hold of me before the message got ahold of me.
And I derive some great comfort from that. Then two, I finally had to pull myself, it was my wife that actually did it. She said, you need to come with me to these meetings, these teens for Christ, you can work with the teens, help the teens. I said, I just don't feel equipped. I don't feel qualified.
 I just, I don't up from down right now, but  I would go ahead and go to these dinners, go to these meetings. I didn't go to all of them, but I went to several of them and I was [01:30:00] so moved by the love for Jesus that these kids had. And then of course, eventually the man's name is Buck Sutton.
He asked me  to give my testimony at one of the meetings, which I did. And so then that began to get me back involved with people outside the message, which was so unfamiliar and strange to me. 
And so I would tell people after you've licked your wounds for awhile, you need to one, deconstruct. And that is, I would say, get into    everything that you guys are doing with Believe The Sign. Look at all the fallacies  and reconcile that with scripture, look at all the things that are wrong. And  then eventually I would tell them to get into the gospels, Matthew, mark, Luke, and John. Read everything that Jesus said, make, and then just focus on that.
Particularly the book of [01:31:00] John and first and second and third John. Look at it without William Branham's filter on it and realize that there's zero mediator, nobody else between you and Jesus. And then just feed on the scriptures, feed on the gospel. Everything. For instance, my dad used to quote  out of  First John, if you walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
And so he would say, see, we're walking in the light.  I had to put my, I had to put the Bible filter on, had nothing to do with the light of the hour, had nothing to do with dispensationalism and nothing to do with William Branham. If you go on to read, he says those that hate anybody or their brother are walking in darkness, but those that love one another are walking in the light.
So the light was attitudinal. It was an experiential walk with God in setting aside the carnality  and strife that the flesh can breed [01:32:00] and loving one another. That was the light. So I had to do that over and over and over with each scripture, I had to take away William Branham's interpretation of that    and not let him be my concordance, not let him have any  influence over me. And just pray literally, like I was starting all over again over each scripture and say, God, what does this mean?
And I would say that it's really that simple. Pray, meditate, get back into the Bible only. And I even limited how many times, or how many preachers I listened to that were outside the message. After a while, then I began to listen to certain ministries that really blessed me and boy, that was also eyeopening.
I was so thrilled to hear different and proper  understandings and interpretations of simple scriptures that brother Branham had completely, completely [01:33:00] bottled and contained for himself. And  yeah, I would say start with the four gospels, make sure you pray in the process you're deconstructing and then get into good, solid fellowship with people that have come out of the message. Limit how much negativity that you have about...  Comes to time where you have to stop ridiculing the messenger, William Branham. Ridiculing, and minimizing and castigating, and just get into something solid and pure and holy and productive. But  first you have to deconstruct, then you build like a Phoenix, you build on the ruins.

Rod: That's what I did. I basically said, okay, I'm going to ignore William Branham and I'm going to start from ground zero. I'm going to say, I assume everything that I've been taught has got problems, some kind of problem with it.  Rather than going through and trying to pick  and trying to sift through the message to figure out what's right and what's wrong.
[01:34:00] I just like, ignore it. Start from ground zero, start from scratch. And I focused on  what I call a confessional orthodoxy, which is what does the church always believed. And you can determine what that is. 

Tim:  I'm going to tell a story to Rod. And Jeff,  I think you'll get a kick out of this as well. Two years ago, when I left a message, Rod was still  attending Cloverdale Bible Way, and I was more or less asked to  not come back to the church  because of some disagreements that I'd had with the ministry there.
 And I, in fact, did come back one weekend  to the church and sat in the assembly and  was basically caught up by the deacons and told nothing's changed. You're still way out of line. You need to go away and not come back.  We're asking you not to return. So I did that because it wasn't an issue of them.
It was more of an issue of me and my faith. There were some [01:35:00] number of years where I was really angry and frustrated. I finally reached out and touched bases with Rod. And I had no idea that Rod had gone through this process of changing from Believe The Sign to BelieveTheSign.  And I had no understanding of what Rod had gone through and I called him. 
Rod, you may remember this discussion. I was walking around outside thinking, boy   I should really reach out and touch bases with Rod.  There were a couple of people at the church that I felt like I wanted to stay in contact with. And Rod was one and there was another guy who was a former trustee.
 We did not keep in contact, but  I wanted to reach out to Rod and on the phone with Rod, I was walking around thinking to myself prior to reaching out to Rod, gosh, how am I going to couch this? How am I going to approach this? And I basically said to Rod.
I said, you know, I understand that William Branham was a prophet of God. And [01:36:00] Rod, without even hearing the "but" said, "no, he wasn't." I was like, Wow. Wow. Okay. Well, this may be easier to reconnect with Rod, than I had anticipated.   So.
that conversation actually went better than I thought. Then I was asked to come down here to do some work with some folks down here in the Phoenix area.    And I have not been back up in the Northwest, but    I just remember the day that Rod and I had that conversation and I thought to myself, this may be easier.
 This reconnection may be easier than I thought,

Jeff: I've got a question for you, Tim.  I did not know that you came out before everybody else came out. What year did you come out?

Tim: Rod, kick me under the table if this isn't right. But I want to say it was 2005, 2006. 

Rod: Yeah, but, and we've talked about that in a, on a prior podcast, Jeff. He was asked to leave because the ministry said, this is the way it is. And he goes, well, I think some [01:37:00] things are different. It wasn't so much as a debate about whether William Branham was a prophet or not as to... we don't like you and you need to leave.

Tim: Yeah. And I had gone through the process of seeking the counsel of other message ministers and other ministers outside of the message, because I was trying to sort out whether or not  there was... 'cause  like Rod, nobody wants to be wrong. Nobody wants to feel like they're doing the wrong thing.
And basically the threat was, if you don't follow what we tell you to do, then you have you forfeited your right to the kingdom of God. 

Jeff: So  you were already seeing the abuse of authoritarianism.  You were catching onto the pride and the abuse of authority way back then.

Tim: In a couple of instances or a couple of circumstances, you're absolutely right.  And so I was asked to, because I  heard their counsel, but did it the other way anyway. [01:38:00] Was told was told,  you're not welcome to come back. 

Jeff: Wow. That's insane. So then after you left that church  where did you go? Did you go to another message church or what'd you do. 

Tim: No. My first thing was to be really angry.  And later on, I thought, you know what?  I didn't leave God. I left that church.  And I need to know more about God. So I started to attend seminary and,  in fact,  was ordained.  I don't have a calling to be a pastor.
I'm not in the administration of a church. I think my calling more than anything else is to teach. But the, at the end of the day, I went through that process to understand God, 'cause    I didn't think at that point, I really knew who God was when I was asked not to come back. And I learned a lot from that.
And I learned a lot from that experience. And I'm really glad that I went through that process. But  it a [01:39:00] huge difference though, just between we told you not to do that, and you did that anyway. Don't come back, 

Jeff: Wow. That's interesting. I do have a prayer request.    Just to mention, I'm going to be 65, this July, and here in the states, I can    start to draw social security.  So that means that I can go part-time where I'm working. So my prayer request is if you guys can just hold me up in prayer because  I don't believe God's done with me yet.
I got a lot of life left in me and I'm going to go part-time.  I want to be involved in things that are super productive for the kingdom.    Just keep that in mind, keep that in prayer.  I just want to get people praying for me so I can have, I want the mind of the Lord considering when July 13th comes and that's when I want to go part-time and start to consider other venues. If God [01:40:00] will open doors for me.

Tim: My wife and I will certainly lift you up on 

Rod: I'll be praying as well. We'll have to talk some more. There are some really interesting things that I'm looking at.  And certainly as you said, we've have a real heart and love for people that are still in the message.

Jeff: Yeah,

Rod: Jeff, last question I wanted to direct your way and that is so we've talked about what the approach should be as people leave the message. That's assuming they still want to  be followers of Jesus, but many who leave the message end up becoming atheists or agnostics. And honestly, I understand why this happens. Because they say I was fooled by William Branham. It's all the same. Everybody's just out to fool me.
There is no God. And he should have showed up and told me that this was wrong a lot sooner. If in fact there is a God. So what advice would you have for people who have rejected everything? What's the proper approach to religion and faith based on your experience since leaving the message. [01:41:00] And I'm sure you've run into people who have basically rejected everything since they've left.

Jeff: I say that they have a right to a miracle, just like Paul, the apostle Paul. The apostle had every right to say, I don't even believe in God anymore. I am so confused. I have killed for God. And now I realized that I was wrong. And so God came along in a pillar of light and helped him. I don't say that it has to be that dramatic, but I would pray for supernatural intervention for them because ours was supernatural, but maybe in a different way.
And I've had situations arise where different ones have rejected the message and then rejected God. And then God does a miracle that they can't explain. In desperation they pray and then go on to some miracle. And now they're confronted with the fact that God showed up.

Rod: Yeah.

Jeff: And so I would say that they are deserving of [01:42:00] that, because if the apostle Paul was deserving one of the most intelligent people who wrote them the Bible, then I would say that any person that has gone through this absolute... it's like going a hundred miles an hour and then hitting a brick wall.
It is hard on the body and the mind or the soul. And I would say 90% of the people that I'm in contact with never go to the extremes, but that 10%. They abandoned God, then they come back. You know what maybe I'm a deist now. I believe there's a God of some kind. Or maybe I believe in some sort of universal God and, in some sort of energy, and then after a while they come back and say, no, I believe that there was a God that created everything and I watched them take these baby steps backwards.
And so for that, I'm happy for. But I would say, I always tell them this. I said you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to pray that God reveals himself to you. And would you be willing to do that? And they are so rebellious and they're so angry [01:43:00] and someone would say, no, I'm not even going to pray.
I don't believe God knew anything for me. And then some of them said yeah, I will pray that God will make himself real, but they're almost threatening God. And I don't mind that. I'm just glad to see them moving in that direction. 
And so for those people that have become atheists that don't believe in God anymore, what they need is a tremendous dose of our love. We have to stay in contact with them. Constantly... I don't care if it's a birthday card or if it's a phone call or if it's... "I was thinking about you the other day" texts, but definitely stay in contact with them because they are closer to coming back.
I can't remember who told me, I don't know who it was, but he said to me, Jeff, you're out of the message. You just don't know it. And he was 100%, right? There's a lot of these,  I want to say to them, you're coming back to Jesus Christ, you just don't know it. And so I won't tell them that because they're going through a fitful stage and they don't want anybody controlling anything in their life anymore.
But at the same time, I think that if I stay in contact with them, I pray [01:44:00] for them. I text them occasionally. I Facebook them occasionally. That's more important than anything, that the thing we can do is just literally I stay in touch with those people. They're on their way back to Jesus, they just don't know it yet. 

Tim: I think that's a great approach. Jeff. My wife and I have been working with someone who left a congregation or an assembly in Arizona recently.  And I see two different types of people who leave assemblies, particularly young people.
In there's the case of you had mentioned rebellion, and I've seen a lot of people, particularly out of this particular assembly, there are a lot of people who are rebellious, out of it.  I'm going completely the other way. We're not going to be involved in God. We're not going to be involved in any sort of organized faith or any of that.
And they go through that process pretty aggressively or assertively. And then this young lady who said, I have to leave that [01:45:00] assembly because I don't believe that what they're teaching is the truth. And for that assembly, leaving that assembly doesn't mean just not coming to church anymore. It means physically moving because there is such control in that assembly and made the determination that she had to physically move away from her family and the message and that particular message assembly.
And she is all about, I want to go to church and I want to know more about God. There really are two different sorts of approaches from people who leave the message, particularly young people about how they're going to approach that. And I think sensitivity to where somebody is in their walk. Because I don't think people leave their walk with God or their walk with Christ necessarily when they leave the message.
They just don't know that either. They don't know that either 

Jeff: And what's this what's you're saying is so important. It really is. What you're [01:46:00] doing is you're staying in touch with this person. You're probably helping them with whatever they need in their life. You're present. And, maybe we feel helpless. Like right now I've, some of my kids are not serving God.
Some of them they've all gone through that stage except for one. I don't believe in God. And and now most all of them, well I believe in God but I don't know who he is yet. So they're making their baby steps and I have to be very careful what I say. 'Cause can't be matter of fact. First of all, they're all in their thirties and  they're older now.
I've got two that are in the twenties and the rest of them are in their thirties. So they run their own life and they're adults, but most important thing I can do is love them. Enjoy them, laugh, enjoy the grandkids, be with them. I think that's probably the most important. And then God, I pray for a miracle. I pray for a miracle in the lives, but in my church, see with my kids were never dominated over.
I didn't dominate over them, but I didn't dominate my church. I never felt like it was my place to be the Holy Spirit. So in fact, so [01:47:00] much so that I violated brother Branham's principles. Brother Branham  said the pastor is the Supreme authority of the local church. If that were the case, he's a spiritual husband.
If that were the case, then they should have left the church and I should have stayed with the church. But I didn't, I left the church. I wasn't going to break up bodies and fellowship. And many of them inter married, I wasn't going to split up families. That would be really, really, really sad. So my kids love me to pieces.
 At first, I was no longer believable. With one woman, I'm almost God to them. And then now I'm not believable. How can you teach  this all of our lives and now you're telling me it's wrong. And so it's taken a toll on them, but I've come to a place where I don't feel helpless anymore. I just stay involved. I touched their lives when I enabled to touch their lives.
And I'm praying that they come back to the simple faith of Jesus Christ.

Rod: Jeff. You make a very valid point, which I [01:48:00] wanted to just touch on, which is expecting a miracle. For me, the reason I stayed in it is  I have experienced too many miracles to say, God doesn't exist. So I know God is interested in me personally. Now, if he's interested in me,  he is interested in everybody else, 'cause I'm not that much of a special guy. 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Rod: I would recommend a book people I'm going to put it at the bottom of the page of the podcast. A guy I met a couple of years ago by the name of Mike McHargue, who has a couple of podcasts. He has a podcast called "Ask Science Mike". He also has the Cozy Robot show. He's the official science advisor for Marvel. He wrote a book called "Finding God in the Waves: How I Lost my Faith and Found it Again Through Science" Really interesting guy.

Jeff: What's his name again,

Rod: His name is Mike McHargue.  I'll put a link on the website and I'll send you this link via email Jeff. So it's a very, I listened to the audio book.
I met him [01:49:00] and listened to him a couple of times speak at a conference we were running and actually introduced him before he spoke. And I got a chance to connect with them. And I really like where this guy is coming from, but he's not coming from a place that a lot of people come from in Christianity.
So very interesting guy. I would really recommend if people are having doubts to connect with this guy and and what he's saying and the book he wrote, 'cause it's very interesting.

Jeff: Excellent. No, that would be nice. I'm going to get that material myself. It sounds like another way that on the periphery of things for people to see how the creator, how this world that we live in can be nothing but a creation from a supernatural mind. An Einstein on steroids.

Rod: Jeff, I want to thank you for coming onto the podcast again with us. I want to thank you for your friendship. I want to thank you for your courage and your honesty and continuing to follow God. Thank you for all of that. It's been great to chat with [01:50:00] you and we wish you God's best for you, Debbie and your family.
Thank you very much for being with us.

Jeff: thank you as well. Greet your wives and your family for me.

Rod: Will do.

Jeff: All right. God. Bless.