Episode 60 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 4)
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Listen to Jay Cox, a message follower, in a conversation with Rod Bergen, a former message believer. In this conclusion of their interview,, they discuss why someone should follow William Branham and the status is of those who do not follow William Branham.
Other topics referred to in the interview:
Dallas Willard on Post-modern Holiness – see video below
The Insanity of God by Nik Ripken – see video below (learn more)
Episode 59 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 3)
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With apologies for an almost 2 year hiatus, Rod continues his conversation with Jay Cox, a follower of William Branham. In part 3, they discuss whether William Branham made any real prophecies. Their discussion includes (click on the underlined links to read further):
Episode 58 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 2)
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Rod continues his conversation with Jay Cox, a follower of William Branham. In this second part, they discuss whether William Branham made any real prophecies. Their discussion includes:
Episode 57 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 1)
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Listen to Jay Cox, a message follower, in a conversation with Rod Bergen, a former message believer. In this first part, they discuss what it means to be a follower of William Branham; where Jay places himself in the world of the message and the types of prophecies that William Branham made.
Music – You Are So Beautiful by Joe Cocker from the album 20th Century Masters – The Millennium Collection: The Best of Joe Cocker (2000) – Available on iTunes
Episode 54 - An Interview with Dr. Gabriel Pollen (Part 2)
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This is the conclusion of the interview with former message follower Dr. Gabriel Pollen of Zambia. Dr. Pollen recently received a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of London.
Dr. Pollen was raised in the message but recently came to grips with the problems in William Branham’s ministry. This is his story.
Music – Love Education by Jon Gibson from the album Love Education (1995) – available from Amazon.
Lyrics for Love Education
So here I am in solo fashion
I sit alone inside my passion
Counting my years, all of my tears
I’ve cried a million, conquered my fears
The battle’s won, over and done
And yet I know that I’ve only begun…
Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby
Love education
Graduation from sin
So there you were, your heart was broken, oh, yeah
Burdened with pain, words left unspoken
Don’t worry none, daughter nor son
Love’s many lessons, this is just one
Love saw you through, made you brand new
And it’s an honor to welcome you to…
Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby
Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby
Oh, baby, sweet love
Talkin’ ’bout love, love, baby
That’s all it really is
That’s all it is
Love, love, love
You know we all need it
Love is a healer and it saves
Oh, love is amazing, my dear
Somebody sing with me
Love is very patient
Love is very kind
Love is never boastful, baby
Love is never proud, haughty or loud
Love is very peaceful
Does not demand its own way, baby
And it bears all things
Believes all things
Hopes all things
Endures all things
Love is amazing
And it keeps getting stronger
Every time you smile
I think you better just hang on
For a little while longer, my dear
Paint a pretty smile each day
Love is a blessing, oh…
My dear
Episode 52 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 3)
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Rod continues his interview with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.
Since leaving the message, James has embarked on a mission to expose the lies, deception, fraud and corruption in the message wherever and whenever he gets an opportunity. He has challenged message ministers all over the world to prove the message correct and as a result has had some threaten his life.
James has stated that he is willing to publicly repent, recant and return to the message if anyone can convince him with hard evidence that his claims are false. Likewise, if you fail to disprove what he claims, are you willing to turn your back on the message and follow the Lord Jesus Christ?
Episode 51 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 2)
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Rod continues his interview with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years. He believed it, he lived it and he preached it. The message was all his wife and children knew and it was all he knew.
James has stated that he is willing to publicly repent, recant and return to the message if anyone can convince him with hard evidence that his claims are false. Likewise, if you fail to disprove what he claims, are you willing to turn your back on the message and follow the Lord Jesus Christ?
Episode 50 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 1)
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James Manuel
Rod interviews former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years. He believed it, he lived it and he preached it. The message was all his wife and children knew and it was all he knew.
Since leaving the message, James has embarked on a mission to expose the lies, deception, fraud and corruption in the message wherever and whenever he gets an opportunity. He has challenged message ministers all over the world to prove the message correct and as a result has had some threaten his life.
He has stated that he is willing to publicly repent, recant and return to the message if anyone can convince him with hard evidence that his claims are false. Likewise, if you fail to disprove what he claims, are you willing to turn your back on the message and follow the Lord Jesus Christ?
Episode 48 - A Biblical view of the Seven Church Ages - An Interview with Andrew Loza (Part 1)
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Rod and one of our listeners, Andrew Loza, a former police detective, discuss growing up in the message and what led him to leave the message. They also begin a discussion of the doctrine of the seven church ages.
Sermon quotes played in this podcast:
William Branham, The Invisible Union Of The Bride Of Christ, 65-1125, para. 240.
Chad Lamb, Believers Christian Fellowhip, The 7 Seals, part 14, Sept. 27, 2017
Chad Lamb, Believers Christian Fellowhip, The 7 Seals, part 16, October 8, 2017
Episode 47 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 5)
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Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. In this episode, Pastor Gwena’s defense of William Branham is challenged on the basis that:
All of William Branham’s prophecies are “after the fact” and even some of those he gets wrong.
William Branham made no valid “before the fact” prophecies on any of his publicly recorded sermons.
Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
Music – Doctor my eyes from the album, Jackson Browne, by Jackson Browne – available on iTunes
Episode 46 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 4)
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Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. They examine what cognitive dissonance is and discuss Pastor Gwena’s claim that he is not the one suffering from cognitive dissonance, rather it is John and Rod that are the ones that are experiencing cognitive dissonance. But is this really the case?
Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
Music – Cognitive Dissonance by Brad Wray – listen to the entire song on YouTube.
Episode 45 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 3)
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Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
Rod and his daughter, Anna, share stories from our listeners about their experiences with celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas in the message. Rod ends the podcast with a description of what Christmas is really all about.
Episode 43 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 2)
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Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. Specifically, they examine a number of significant problems with William Branham such as the lack of newspaper articles which William Branham said appeared across the US and Canada; his lies about travelling around the world seven times; his visit to Pigalle; the problems with Congressman Upshaw; William Branham’s first commission which he stopped talking about after he changed his story; and the failed healing of Donny Morton. Detailed links are below.
Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
Music – Jesus is the Answer by Andraé Crouch from The Definitive Greatest Hits (2005) – available from iTunes
Episode 42 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 1)
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In this episode, Rod responds to a defense of William Branham that was presented by Wisper Gwena, pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church, Waltham Abbey (North London), UK. Rod is joined by John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana. John is also the author of two books, “Stone Mountain to Dallas: The Untold Story of Roy Elonza Davis” and “Jim Jones – The Malachi 4 Elijah Prophecy”.
In this episode, Rod & John discuss the following:
Personal accusations made by Pastor Gwena.
Is there a difference between facts and the truth?
Is the research contained on the Seek The Truth and Believe The Sign websites error-free?
Several weeks ago, we received an email from a listener. Here is an excerpt from that email:
In a nutshell, I feel like I am in the very beginning stages of “Message Recovery”… terrified of attending “any church”, still struggling with fear of “damnation” and “total confusion” of who/what God is vs. the Indoctrination of the Message.
Your Podcasts were my turning point….thank you so much for putting them out there….
Thank you, I wait every Sunday for a new one to be released….they are my Lifeline right now. Struggling with severe depression, but the Podcasts have helped immensely.
I am looking forward to the subject of “Message Recovery, you have decided to leave….now what….where do we go…what do we do…where in society and the non-message church world do we fit in?”
I FEEL LIKE AN ALIEN, I never felt comfortable and like I measured up or fit in at the Message Church or among the people….and felt like a person caught in between worlds outside…always awkwardly never finding the place for me…and always critical, filtering other churches against Message standards….so I just want to sit down in the middle of the street a cry….I am a lost sheep.
One thing I discovered….when you push WMB out of the way….it is startling that behind him the entire time there was Christ on the Cross…!! WMB was impeding and interfering with my ability to function or having a relationship with Christ. I was too busy trying to meet the Message Criteria, and give reverence to the Message and the Prophet….which seemed to totally exclude the Simplicity of God’s Love and the Salvation Christ alone offers!
We have reached out to a number of people that have left the message and asked them for their thoughts on the question posed by our listener – “You have decided to leave….now what….where do we go…what do we do…where in society and the non-message church world do we fit in?”
This podcast seeks to answer our listener’s question.
Episode 40 - Interview with Paul & Kathy Jenkins (Part 2)
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This is part 2 of the interview with former message followers, Paul & Kathy Jenkins. Paul’s father, Lonnie Jenkins, was a well known teacher in the message and Paul was also the worship leader for many years at Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio. Paul is the brother of Jeff Jenkins, who we have interviewed several times on Off The Shelf.
Episode 39 - Interview with Paul & Kathy Jenkins (Part 1)
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In this episode, Rod talks to former message followers, Paul & Kathy Jenkins. Paul’s father, Lonnie Jenkins, was a well known teacher in the message and Paul was also the worship leader for many years at Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio. Paul is the brother of Jeff Jenkins, who we have interviewed several times on Off The Shelf.
Episode 35 - Interview with John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website
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In this episode, Rod talks to John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana. John is also the author of two books, “Stone Mountain to Dallas: The Untold Story of Roy Elonza Davis” and “Jim Jones – The Malachi 4 Elijah Prophecy”.
In this episode, John talks about, among other things:
Growing up in the message (followers of William Branham refer to themselves as being “in the message”).
How is being born into the message different from those who came into the message later in life?
Is the message a cult?
His recent interview on CBC Radio regarding the message street preachers in London, Ontario;
Episode 34 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim discusses the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 3)
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In this episode, Rod concludes his interview with well known apologist and author, Abdu Murray.
For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine-year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.
In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss the doctrine of the Trinity including:
whether analogies are useful in understanding the Trinity:
baptism in the name of Jesus Christ;
whether a person is required to believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be considered a Christian; and
what it means to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.
Episode 33 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim discusses the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 2)
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In this episode, Rod continues with part 2 of his interview with h well known apologist and author, Abdu Murray.
For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine-year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.
In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss the doctrine of the Trinity, including:
the biblical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity;
the logical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity;
how the doctrine of the Trinity proves God to be the Greatest Possible Being over and above a Oneness or Islamic conception of God;
the concept of persons in the Trinity and perichoresis;
Specific issues raised by Oneness Pentecostals or modalists, including:
Isaiah 9:6
John 10:30
John 12:45
John 14:9; and
the charge made by modalists and Islam of tritheism.
Episode 32 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim talks about the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 1)
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In this episode of Off The Shelf, Rod talks to Abdu Murray, a well known apologist and the author of two books, including his latest, Grand Central Question: Answering the Critical Concerns of the Major Worldviews.
For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine-year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.
Abdu has spoken to diverse international audiences and has participated in debates and dialogues across the globe. He has appeared as a guest on numerous radio and television programs all over the world.
Abdu holds a BA in Psychology from the University of Michigan and earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Michigan Law School. As an attorney, Abdu was named several times in Best Lawyers in America and Michigan Super Lawyer. Abdu is the Scholar in Residence of Christian Thought and Apologetics at the Josh McDowell Institute of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.
In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss:
Abdu’s journey from Islam to Christ;
The mission of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries; and
Is the doctrine of the Trinity inconsistent with the unity of God and the Shema of Deut 6:4 which states “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”
Episode 31 - Sylvia Perkins - Why I left the message (Part 3)
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This is part 3 of our interview with Sylvia Perkins. Sylvia attended Branham Tabernacle as a child. She was in a myriad of William Branham’s services and even watched TV with Joseph Branham, the youngest of the Branham children.
She was at the funeral of William Branham and attended Lee Vayle’s church for 18 years following the William Branham’s death. She was at the opening of the opening of the cornerstone of Branham Tabernacle after it was struck by a car and saw what it contained. She even had an interview with William Branham and he told her she was a prophetess.
Join Bryan and Rod as they discuss the many astounding things that Sylvia had the opportunity of seeing and why Sylvia ultimately had to leave the message. We know you will be as surprised as we were at the many revelations and insights into the life and ministry of William Branham.
