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Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. They examine what cognitive dissonance is and discuss Pastor Gwena’s claim that he is not the one suffering from cognitive dissonance, rather it is John and Rod that are the ones that are experiencing cognitive dissonance. But is this really the case?
External Links:
- Seek The Truth article on Cognitive Dissonance
- BelieveTheSign article on Cognitive Dissonance
- Video on the Brown Bear vision
- Seek The Truth blog – How ‘Bout Them Second Brown Bears
- BelieveTheSign article on the Brown Bear Vision
- The Mystery of the Empty Cornerstone
- Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
- Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet
Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
Music – Cognitive Dissonance by Brad Wray – listen to the entire song on YouTube.
I don’t know how you people had believed the message if you did not know your bible especially the Old Testament like John says. For us we know our bible yet we are in the message. I have personally gone through the entire bible from Genesis to Revelations a few times. Just this December I completed another round of the entire bible from Genesis to Revelations on a program to finish the bible in 90days. I do this yet am STILL IN THE MESSAGE. So don’t take the way you had believed the message as a standard, you had missed something.
You said here the only excuse for a “failed” vision is repentance. In my comments on your episode 45 (part 3) below I gave you a scripture on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God told him to do on anointing Jehu. You tried to explain this by saying Elijah was a disobedient prophet as opposed to a false prophet. But follow my arguments in my comments and you will see your explanation does not hold water. You then try and throw a red herring to divert attention to words vision vs still small voice when the point of the argument is God spoke to Elijah directly. PLEASE READ MY COMMENTS ON EPISODE 45 on Elijah dying without fulfilling what God had told him.
Coming to cognitive dissonance, this is a well known psychology theory. This theory is not about message believers trying to defend the Prophet as you almost try and make it sound. The theory suggests that people have an inner drive to hold their beliefs (cognitions) and attitudes in harmony and avoid disharmony (dissonance). This belief spoken of here is ANY belief NOT just a message belief as you try and potray.
You people now hold a firm cognition (belief) that Bro Branham was a false prophet. This belief is so deep entrenched in you that you think anyone that does not see what you see is deluded. You fight for your belief so much until you have dedicated websites, podcasts, hours and hours of time to try and defend your belief and spread your beliefs. Anyone that comes against your beliefs you accuse them of cognitive dissonance YET YOU DON’T REALISE THAT YOU YOURSELVES ARE IN COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. You say where are we in dissonance, deep within you there are somethings that you know that these were supernatural in the life of Bro Branham. Your website Rod carries the testimony of Charlie Mitchel who Bro Branham discerned accurately in the sermon This Day This Scripture Is Fulfilled. No prayer cards had been given in that service so Bro Branham could not have been reading prayer cards as some may be deluded to want to say. People went to ask Charlie if they had a previous encounter with Bro Branham and he confirmed there was none. People then asked him what he had done to be called out in discernment and he said in his own words “I just gave up this whole world and take Jesus”. His lung cancer was instantly healed and he went to 2 separate specialist who confirmed he no longer had cancer. THIS TESTIMONY IS ON YOUR OWN WEBSITE ROD. So you know there was a supernatural that was undeniable in the life of WMB. This knowledge is there at the back of your soul but because you now hold a firm belief that Bro Branham was false, you now go into cognitive dissonance. The result is you dedicate a life to try and disprove God’s Prophet. Those are the TYPICAL SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE.
Let me drop this here – Charlie Mitchel said he gave up the whole world and TOOK JESUS. When he took Jesus, Bro Branham was directed to him in discernment and his cancer disappeared. Charlie TOOK JESUS and that Jesus responded through a prophet whom you now want to call FALSE – Please let’s be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don’t understand let us just say there are things we don’t understand and wait for God to clear them for us.
I REST MY CASE
Spending that much time in the Bible is dfeinitely unlike most message pastors. But again, you make a vastly inaccurate assumption. I know the Bible as well and have studied and read it since I was a child.
In fact, what protected me and led me out of the message is that I hold the Bible above WMB. Do you? Here’s the test – Please let us know the issues where you disagree with WMB’s interpretation of scripture. If you have no disagreements with him, then it is clear that you hold WMB’s message above the Bible. That is the logical conclusion.
However, I am surprised that you are unable to see the difference between WMB saying “Thus Saith The Lord” I WILL KILL A BROWN BEAR and Elijah saying that God told him to do something and he didn’t do it. The difference is simple but if you can’t see it, I am not surprised because THAT IS WHAT cognitive dissonance does to a person. They must accept the position that justifies their beliefs and are unable to see even simple contradictions.
The title of Dr. Festinger’s book is “WHEN PROPHECY FAILS” which describes EXACTLY what has happened to you and those in the message. One of the things required for more fervent belief to occur is this – “undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur.” That is what our evidence with respect to the failed visions are – disconfirmatory evidence. By definition, it creates cognitive dissonance.
With respect to Charlie Mitchell (whom I met many years ago), if someone was healed by Jesus Christ, that is wonderful. But that requires me to glorify God and not WMB. Even if WMB had a gift of healing, that is not the sign of a prophet. You are simply grasping for straws.
You rest your case? But you have not proved a thing. An independent jury would not be convinced. In fact, they would look at you quizzically and wonder at your weak logic. And that is precisely the reason that you should appear on our podcast. Let the people hear your explanations and ours, and then let them judge.
Pastor Gwena, what about this quote? Where’s the scripture for this?
I was talking to a person not long ago. He was trying to discuss with me and saying, “Aren’t you ashamed to say that God created the heavens and earth in three days, or, in six days?” I said, “That’s what the Bible said.” Said, “Well, we got evidence and can prove that the world is millions of years old.” I said, “That didn’t have anything to do with it. In Genesis 1:1, it said, ‘In the beginning God created heavens and earth’ period. See? That’s all. Now, the world without form and void.” And I said, “I believe every seed was laying right there from some other civilization or something, and as soon as the water lifted off and the light struck it, up come the trees and everything.” The same thing with the human being; it’s a type. When all the — the — the mist is moved away, and the revealed Truth to that real seed laying there still germitized, and the Light of the Gospel can strike it by true a-vindication of the Word, it’ll live; it’s got Life in it…?… Outside of that it can’t live. It hasn’t got no Life in it. (63-0321 THE.FOURTH.SEAL)
Was there a pre-Adamic civilization or not?
Very interesting question, Victor. And one of the more bizarre quotes I have read… I certainly wasn’t aware of it. I am interested in Pastor Gwena’s response.
Unfortunately, those Message “nuggets” have become the subject of long sermons and heterodox doctrines of every kind. Message believers have exalted Bro. Branham and his sermons to the point that it’s either 100% the truth or absolute rubbish.
In my opinion, the dogmatism, denominationalism, and superstitions within the Message rival those of pagan idolatry and Catholism they so disdain.
God help them.
Definitely! They trash the Catholic church and then they cover up sexual abuse and don’t think they have done anything wrong. That’s what started my examination of WMB. I knew there was something terribly wrong.
Pastor Gwena, I advise you to read your Bible more closely. Please!
1 Kings 21:27-28: Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite: “Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his house in the days of his son.”
Verses 28-29 eloquently explains why Elijah never got to anoint Jehu. God postponed execution of plan A.
God heard Ahab’s plea. It’s a shame you insist on this futile mission of bashing the Bible, Pastor Gwena.
What’s now in question is your competence in regards to rightly handling the word of truth. Prophecy lays out intentions of God. This was to remove Ahab and his family (! Kings 21:17-28)
Teaching heresies, making the Bible lie.
Take off those message goggles; you’ll read The Bible more clearly.
Well said, Tony!
Thanks Rod.
It goes without saying, your work is fantastic!
Your podcasts are something I so much look forward every week.
Websites, believethesign.com, seekyethetruth.com, searchingforvindication.com have immensely helped me navigate my path out of the message, and by God’s grace, into Christ through the Bible.
Please, keep it up! God bless you.
So Pastor Wisper Gwena, you see now, all you achieved on this futile journey to discredit the Written Word of God, the Bible, is humiliate yourself?
If you are to honest with yourself, standards of those holding public office, in this country, would demand you to resign from your position (you place the Bible on the back burner, you slander)
Your tirade, slandering Rod Bergen and John Collins was a real cause for concern, given your accusations are false. To date, ther’s no formal apology to speak of, that is after such false damning accusations.
Is that Christian-like? But you still carried on commenting on the podcast. What example do you give?
.
Ok, you go further to falsely accuse Abraham and Elijah (Old Testament) of making false prophecies, which they never made; all this to make Branham “right”?
You’ve become an accuser of the brethren, prophet (Elijah) and the Bible itself.
You now teach Bible trashing to your followers.
Look at yourself carefully in the mirror Pastor Gwena; try to answer the following questions as honestly as possible:
Are you really a worthy office bearer? (We know you were installed in this position by your Pastor Chitsinde).
Are you an honest custodian of the Word of God? Or is it Spoken Word of William Branham at all costs? ( for you deceitfully handle the Word of God, the Bible)
Your prophecy on “17” early last year; is it not you it speaks of? Is it not time for change, Wisper?
Change from standing up for a dead man, Wiliam Branham, to standing up for Risen Christ?
Change from trashing God’s Written Word, The Bible, to preaching God’s Written Word, The Bible?
Change from preaching Branham a false prophet to preaching Jesus the Messiah?
Do not be found fighting God to please men!
Think about it!
Tony I did not discredit the Word of God in any way but I have had clips extracted from my sermons that have given people like you who have followed the podcasts a wrong impression about what I was preaching. I have since provided links to my full sermons and Rod won’t publish them – that to me is totally disingenuous.
Your comment on Elijah and Ahab repenting does not hold Tony, READ YOUR BIBLE CLOSELY. To begin with Elijah outlived Ahab. If the reason for Elijah NOT anointing Jehu was about Ahab repenting and God changing from plan A, then Ahab should have outlived Elijah. But Ahab died in 1 Kings 22:40 and Ahaziah his son reigned and did that which was evil. 2 Kings 1 Elijah is sent with a message to Ahaziah the son of Ahab who had enquired of the god of Ekron. Simply put, Elijah could have still anointed Jehu and yet fit into Ahab having repented. So your argument does not hold Tony.
Secondly the time of anointing does not have anything to do with time of execution of the mandate. Scriptural precedent can tell you this. Samuel was sent to anoint David King over Israel when Saul was yet there. But it was years before David became King though he had been anointed. So the time of anointing has nothing to do with time of execution of the mandate.
But what is my point in all this? My point is THERE ARE THINGS IN THE WORD OF GOD THAT OUR HUMAN UNDERSTANDING WILL NOT GRASP BUT YET THE WORD OF GOD REMAINS TRUE. WHERE THE HUMAN MIND FAILS WE NEED REVELATION TO CATCH THE PROGRAM OF GOD. Before we have the revelation, its very easy to find fault with the Word. But when you know the WORD OF GOD DOES NOT HAVE AN ERROR, though you may not understand the issue you will be faced with, but you won’t move from what you believe. SO LET IT BE WITH THE MESSAGE. We have our explanations to the things that you find fault with and we are VERY content with our explanations. The fact that you find fault does not mean we are wrong. PHARISEES FOUND FAULT WITH THE LORD JESUS BASING IT ON SCRIPTURE UNTIL THEY CRUCIFIED HIM – THINK OF IT, THEY CRUCIFIED OUR LORD QUOTING SCRIPTURE AND HAVING SCRIPTURAL JUSTIFICATION. So your attitude is NOT new at all – BE CAREFUL.
Upon hearing that dreadful announcement from the lips of the Lord’s messenger, we are told that Ahab “rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly” (1 Kings 21:27). Because of that external humbling of himself before Jehovah, He declared unto the prophet, “I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son’s days will I bring the evil upon his house” (1 Kings 21:29). Since that divine decision was communicated to Elijah personally, we infer that it was tantamount to bidding him defer the anointing of Jehu: a respite having been granted unto Ahab, the commissioning of the one who was to execute the judgment was also postponed. For the same reason we conclude that since the time for the anointing of Jehu had not arrived before Elijah left this earth, that he transferred this particular duty to his successor, to the one who became “prophet in his room,” as the Lord Jesus is said to have baptized those who were immersed by His disciples acting under His authority (John 4:1–2).
Arthur Walkington Pink, Gleanings from Elisha His Life and Miracles, p. 242.
Pastor Gwena,
Can you tell us under what conditions Deut 18:20-22 would ever apply? We have multiple failed visions, not simply one. At what point do the rationalizations fail? At what point in time do the attempts to justify failed vision come to an end?
This repeats a bit what’s been posted by Rod.
WHAT’S THECONTEXT?
-God is judging Ahab & his house. 1 Kings 21:17-25
Was this THUS SAITH THE LORD?
-YES IT WAS. 1 Kings 21:19 “You shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord’:
WHY?
-Because of Baal worship. 1 Kings 21:25 – not because of make up, is falsely taught by Branham.
WHO ANNOINTED JEHU?
-one of Elisha’s students
DID THUS SAITH THE LORD COME TO PASS?
-YES IT HAPPENED 2 Kings 9-10
What you fail to see, what is clear to most is that, Elijah got directive/order from the Lord (1Kings 21:27-28). This supersedes first directive which you so dearly hang on. When exactly this 2nd directive was issued, it’s not recorded in the Bible, but what’s definitely clear as way forward for Elijah is 2nd directive.
What is to supersede?
to replace something, especially something older or more old-fashioned:
Example: Estate Agents get new instructions from seller to perhaps increase asking price. Repercussion could be reduced views, longer time to sell etc. But new instructions supersedes previous directive.
Another obvious analogy is that of New Covenant which now supersedes Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:7-8) – though not so obvious in the message, I must say.
So, are clearly able to determine what elements of original directive got superseded, as for you charge Elijah as refusing to anoint Jehu?
How significant is the act of anointing Jehu by Elijah, Elisha, or Elisha’s student ? We know in the end, he was anointed by Elisha’s student
2 Kings 9:6-8
“Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I have anointed you king over the people of the Lord, over Israel. 7 You shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the Lord, at the hand of Jezebel. 8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish;
Though this was a very significant act, did it really require a prophet like Elijah, or Elisha?
No. It worked fine with Elisha’s student.
So Pastor Gwena, wants an anointing to kill Ahab to sit idly on Jehu, indefinitely? Jehu’s mandate was specific – to kill Ahab;
and that would not supersede Ahab’s prayer before God.
Again, you make no sense Pastor Gwena.
Since you are the one accusing Elijah of failing to carry out God’s orders, you, the accuser, must show how Elijah refused to do so.
You insist he did, but which directive are you applying? 1 Kings 21:27-28 or 1 Kings 19:16?
It’s like a Christian choosing to live under Old covenant, while ignoring New Covenant.
More significantly, to what extent did Ahab’s prayer affect “ Thus saith the Lord”, judgement on Ahab’s Family by Jehu?
No effect – simply deferred it. This would happen anyhow because God had spoken.
Is Elijah a true prophet with “Thus Saith the Lord”?
Yes.
William Branham has not a single Vision/prophecy with “Thus saith the Lord”, recorded on tape or paper which came to pass.
This qualifies WMB as false prophet.
Pastor Gweeena! Pheeeeew! SMH
Again, I’ll really try to be as patient with you as possible. It’s rather needful here.
Pastor Gwena said:
“Simply put, Elijah could have still anointed Jehu and yet fit into Ahab having repented. So your argument does not hold Tony.”
WHAT IS THECONTEXT?
-God is judging Ahab & his house. 1 Kings 21:17-25
Was this THUS SAITH THE LORD?
-YES IT WAS. 1 Kings 21:19 “You shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord’:
WHY?
-Because of Baal worship. 1 Kings 21:25
DID IT HAPPEN?
-YES IT HAPPENED 2 Kings 9-10
HOW DID IT HAPPEN?
-God used His assassin, Jehu (2 Kings 9-10)
Now, let’s break it down for you Pastor Gwena!
Main players – Character analysis
– Jehu, God’s assassin, tasked to judge Ahab’s house, Priests of Baal, Baal worshippers, get rid of Israel Baal worship.
– Elijah the Tishbite – charged by Pastor Gwena for allegedly refusing to anoint Jehu – therefore equivalent to Branham’s failed “Thus Saith The Lord”?
– King Ahab – evil king of Israel – however prayed, fasted – God deferred judgement on him and his house to his son, Jeroham.
–
So, who was Jehu? Jehu – a larger than life, ruthless assassin. Once anointed, that’s it! It’s action right away! He’s loaded with men zealous for him & proclamation is going to made right away. For lack of decent English expression, Jehu waged Jihad. (2 Kings 9-10).
Soon as Jehu gets anointed (2 Kings 9-10), Jehu goes on rampage. He runs riot until Israel was cleared of all of Ahab’s descendants, wife, Baal worshippers, priests of Baal, and Temples of Baal.
WOULD ANNOINTING JEHU CHANGE HIS PERSONALITY?
So what would have happened had Elijah anointed Jehu? Then 1 Kings 21:29 would have to be erased from the Bible – courtesy of wise counsel of Pastor Gwena.
Why? Because Jehu would have had to strike immediately, the House of Ahab, priests of Baal, Jezebel. Jehu was God’s assassin.
What else?
Had Elijah taken counsel from Pastor Gwena, then God Almighty would have had to disregard King Ahab’s prayer, to satisfy Pastor Gwena’s wish to let Elijah anoint Jehu.
Hmnn? God taking orders from Pastor Gwena?
“Oh! Biblical’s precedent! – David, shepherd boy”, I hear Pastor Gwena wisper. So then, Pastor Gwena gets Jehu anointed by Elijah to go and serve King Ahab and Queen Jezebel? Hmmnn?( Mind you lustful Jeza fancied Jehu – wore make-up for him)
Are you kidding me? Assassin in the palace? What precedent?
Ok, then; God decreed that it would be in the time of Ahab’s son. First to reign after Ahab’s death was Ahaziel, then his other son, Jehoram, who marked the end of King Ahab’s Dynasty (1 Kings 21:29…… I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son’s days I will bring the disaster upon his house).
…so God is now at fault for choosing to judge Ahab during Jehoram’s reign? Jeroham, Ahab’s son?
Are you serious Pastor Gwena? So you taking God to task for choosing Jeroham in place of your choice, Ahaziel?
Well, deal with it Pastor Gwena ! Ahab prayed! God heard! God chose to judge Jeroham. God is God.
You are too simplistic, you lack depth Pastor Gwena. Your understanding of Bible characters is superficial.
I blame the message cage. It’s very inhibitive.
Come out and enjoy stories from the Bible.
Great stuff! I promise.
It’s a good thing that you are racing to finish the Bible. Sometimes we need a little bit of fire under the chair to go back to the dusty Bible that supplements a tape-a-day.
Your arguments are very logical, but they still avoid the questions by a thousand miles. You stated that “there are things that you cannot understand”, this is an excuse that you give for very apparent Biblical contradictions and failed prophecies. Further study of these things will show a more significant divergence rather than convergence to the truth of the Bible.
You talk of RED HERRINGS when you are the one to throw in the first one. The debate was not on “Is the Bible true”. But if someone reads your comments on the podcasts they will think you are arguing the negative of the title you reverted to! The current status quo is that those who stand with WMB versus those who stand with the Bible. It should not be like that! Rather than repositioning the “prophet” you risk making your followers agnostics and atheists by rubbishing the Bible in the name of “finding precedents” which are just twisted interpretations of people who have a motive of keeping people under their control for their franchise’s survival and love of tithes.
It is hard for someone who is benefiting financially from the MESSage to quit and lose the perks. This is the reason why pastors are defending the lies the hardest. One pastor who left said that his earnings went down by 2 thirds. Many MESSage pastors cannot imagine let alone endure this. The poor followers shout amen without discerning the spirit behind these men. I spoke to a man from Bro E.H. Roscoes church, and he said blatantly, “WMB lied so what? The Bible lied as well”. This is the real position of people who put a prophet on par with the Bible.
We never deny the works that WMB did. We never refuse that God used him. We only say that according to Matt 7:22 gifts and callings are without repentance. God will say to them depart from me ye workers of iniquity, but they would have done many MIGHTY WORKS (maybe discernment and raising the dead perhaps even creating squirrels.) The Bible tells us not hang our souls on miracles and wonders because they can be impersonated! This verse tells us what the wicked one can do. 2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
We have not discounted the true discernment. We have just pointed out by the same standard that WMB measured others that the most dangerous lie is the one that has 99% truth. Consider this quote: “Now, you can say like they did in that day, “Oh, it’s Beelzebub, a fortuneteller. It’s…” But if anybody knows what fortunetelling is, they know that fortunetelling is a lie of the devil, and is not half the time correct” (58-0109 – The Called-Out). If WMB was right some of the times and wrong some of the times in his discernment what does that make him according to his own judgement? In another quote, WMB says this: “What is a soothsayer? What is a fortune teller? Is a perverted spirit, that the devil has taken that person who could’ve been used for God and perverted it into the devil’s work” (56-1208 – Abraham). It is also pertinent to the discussion that we point out that the prophets doing discernments nowadays are using the same tactics employed by WMB. If discernment was indeed a messianic sign as WMB says then it was not supposed to be widely spread as it is currently.
Yet, with all due respect Pastor, you’re making your view point as a STANDARD as well, because your Old Testament examples clearly shows how you’re deliberately ignoring Deut 18… the examples about Israel’s stay in Egypt and Elijah to anoint have no bearing on the issue regarding failed prophesy: I didn’t read Elijah saying “thus saith the Lord I will anoint…” … nor did I read “thus saith the Lord Israel will sojourn in Egypt…”. Dueteronomy clearly states that the prophet has to say “thus saith the Lord” (call the name of the Lord). None of that is mentioned when Elijah was told… or when it was said about Israel.
I challenge you to directly address Deuteronomy 18 in the light of these questions about WMB’s visions which a lot of people can clearly see that something’s not right. And you know in your heart also that there’s something a miss here. You have the responsibility of being honest with yourself then with people then God – “if you’re not honest with yourself the how can you be honest with your neighbor; and how can you be honest with God whom you don’t see”?
Now branding these boys as being possessed with “an evil spirit”… really? Personal attacks and being so judgemental is no way to defend WMB, anyone knows that. Unless you have discernment to know well about the spirit world you really should be careful treading those grounds as you don’t have a basis for those awful claims.
Now, how honest and transparent can the brothers be? They encounter problems with the message; they’ve raised the issues with message leaders; they’ve gone international with a request for ANYBODY to address and disprove their findings. What SIN has been commit here? WMB said if anyone can prove any of those visions wrong he was willing to be called false prophet; howbeit this has turned into a curse?
I’m shocked at the people who are called “bible believers”; their attitude and temperament towards the scripture. If you you fear God then serve Him.
I agree, Wisper should come on a podcast and we can hear. I too have gone through the bible maybe not as many times as Wisper, but can surely tell where WMB says he preached what Paul preached when in fact he did not. I don’t know how Wisper can do that. There is one answer here (Only believe.. as is only belive what WMB said)… clearly there is some form of putting WMB above the bible.. and denying that is what cognitive dissonance does to a person . Cognitive dissonance does not apply top message believers only. It applies to anyone who displays such behaviour and most CULT followers do that.
Here is a basic one which is definitely “not” what Paul preached let alone find it in the bible.
WMB says, “if a woman cuts her hair, a man’s got a right to put her away in divorcement”…
“I can prove by the Bible that any woman that’ll bob her hair has a legal right in the sight of God for her husband to divorce her. Hair… That’s the Scripture”.
OK .maybe I’m just oversimplifying here but.
if God speaks to me in an audible voice or in a vision, and asks me to complete at task that’s between me and the Lord. Its up to me to carry out his command..If do what the Lord has commanded, great, if I don’t do what he has commanded that’s not so good, and I may end up in a fish’s belly or not getting across Jordan etc.
If I stand and speak as God then that becomes prophecy and I become the voice of The Lord to the people. If that comes to pass then all is well If not then I have spoken presumptuously and Deuteronomy 18 applies.
Something I find Challenging is that Bro Branham’s only public prophecies were about things that he himself would do. Prophecies that he would fulfill or where he would play a major part in the fulfilment.
This blurs the Lines e.g. – TSTL I will kill or see a big bear. As a person who hunted and shot bears there was always a chance this would happen anyway.
– The Tent vision. He was an Evangelist that had used tents in the past and had a healing ministry.
– The Durban trip. He had been to south Africa before and was used to having big crowds. It wasn’t beyond his human capability to organise very large campaigns.
Most bible prophecies are defined by the fact that they tell of a future event that is not really the obvious outcome in the natural. Also they aren’t usually about the prophets themselves or within the prophets capability to fulfill e.g. God tells Abraham to go and live in another land. It is a command not a prophecy. Abraham doesn’t say thus saith the Lord I will live in another land. Otherwise he could just move house and fulfill the prpphecy.
Its not Joseph that says I will have a boy and and he will be born in Bethlehem. Its God before the fact. Otherwise Joseph could have just moved to Bethlehem, had kids until he had a boy.
Its not the Jews in captivity in Babylon that prophesy the time of their stay and their release. They find the book of the prophet written before hand. Also it looked impossible that they would be freed so the prophecy was against the natural run of events.
Yes Joseph was one who was told about his own life, but there was very little possibilty in the natural he could engineer the fulfilment himself.
If a prophesy is something that we can easily imagine within our own realm of experience. If we have a good chance of bringing about by our own actions. Is it really vindication of our ministry when it comes to pass? Is it really even a work of the Lord. Can we really say look at the thing the Lord has done.
Bro Branham could have easily killed a bear. He did order a tent to be purchased as a result of the tent Vision. Preparing to initiate the campaign and the fulfillment Isn’t it therefore even more amazing that the Lord didn’t let him to fulfill prophecies. Didn’t bring the bear or indeed any big bear to him to be shot. Didn’t allow him to preach in Durban and didn’t initiate the tent campaign.
Let .me ask you this. If I spent my life predicting things that I could fulfill and that might happen anyway, would anybody think much of .me. Probably not.
If however If I had some signs and wonders would people listen and give my predictions more importance?
Would those signs and wonders be defacto proof that my predictions should be listened to?
Are signs and wonders gods approval defacto on a ministry and a signpost to truth. Or should we be more wary about how we prove the truth.
Bro Branhams prophecies failed to come to pass. For whatever reason you want to give they failed.
Do the signs and wonders dismiss the failed prophecies. Do they make his vague prophecies any more valid. Does predicting you will have a boy called Joseph really count as prophecy.
The Lord blues you all
Tony
..and I agree Tony.
Pasto Gwena
Just to jog your memory; you offered no response regarding your damning accusations of Rod & John.
You offered no response on 400/430 years ( was this deliberate manipulation of scripture)
..and now this most flimsiest straw you’r clinging on. No good! Is it?
Anyway, to more current issues:
WHAT IS THE CONTEXT?
-God is judging Ahab & his house. 1 Kings 21:17-25
Was this THUS SAITH THE LORD?
-YES IT WAS. 1 Kings 21:19 “You shall speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord’:
WHY?
-Because of Baal worship. 1 Kings 21:25
DID IT HAPPEN?
-YES IT HAPPENED 2 Kings 9-10
HOW DID IT HAPPEN?
-God used His assassin, Jehu (2 Kings 9-10)
So this is Biblical precedence according to Pastor Wisper Gwena.
Pastor Gwena’ so called precedent of Prophet Samuel anointing boy David has totally different circumstances. Perhaps you are not aware, this story is in 1 Samuel 16.
I Samuel 16:13-16
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lordtroubled him. 15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
Note; Spirit of God left King Saul to land on David.
This is how God planned David’s ascendance onto the throne. David married King Saul’s daughter, David’s best friend was Saul’s own son, Jonathan.
David remembered Jonathan’s son Mephibosheth.
So according to Pastor Gwena, precedent must apply: Jehu gets evil Jeza’s daughter for wife? Hmmnn?
Or Jehu makes best friend Ahaziel, Jeza’s evil son? Hmmnn?
All to match Pastor Gwena’s imagined pattern, or is it precedent?
This was the purpose of Jehu’s anointing:
2 Kings 9:6-10
And he poured the oil on his head, and said to him, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I have anointed you king over the people of the Lord, over Israel. 7 You shall strike down the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the Lord, at the hand of Jezebel. 8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish; and I will cut off from Ahab all the males in Israel, both bond and free. 9 So I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah. 10 The dogs shall eat Jezebel on the plot of ground at Jezreel, and there shall be none to bury her.’” And he opened the door and fled.
Jehu was anointed to wage civil war, to anihilate idolaters.
You cannot start from a premise that WMB is prophet, then work backwards trying as hard as possible to squeeze him in the Bible. It’s impossible. He was never there. He does not belong there just like, Mohamed, Joseph Smith, Taze Russell, etc
Soo in the end “Thus saith the Lord” happened wheather, Elisha, Elijah, Jehu, Ahab etc. liked it or not.
“Thus Saith the Lord” came through Elijah the Tishbite, a true prophet of God.
As for Branham? Not even one “Thus saith the Lord” on tape or written ever came to pass.
God did not speak thru WMB! That’s between him and God! Not your battle.
But I’m lost for words to describe your woe some situation. If this is the calibre of pastors fronting the message today, then Lord have mercy!
These are Biblical basics Pastor Gwena.
Sad, it looks like It’s will be a long, sad drive down M1 on Sunday to church. Decent people deserve answers. Surely it’s no more business as usual?
Perhaps it’s not only, you. English Cricket team lost 4-0 to Australia last week. Some comfort in desolation.
But. I recommend Jesus Christ, and the Bible, the Witten Word Of God.
Examples of Biblical precedents: Pillar of Fire in Exodus leading children of Israel. Everyone, including Pharaoh saw it. It was a public display.
Elijah @Mount Carmel showdown – Everyone saw the fire come down from heaven
Acts 2:3, day of Pentecost – everyone saw licks of fire.
Branham pillar of in Houston 1950? Not one a single person saw it. Not even Branham himself.
Gimme precedent!