Episode 45 – How to defend William Branham… poorly (Part 3)

Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham.  Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church.  Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

External Links:

Music – The Word of God from the album, Choose Life, by Big Tent Revival – available from Amazon

54 Replies to “Episode 45 – How to defend William Branham… poorly (Part 3)”

  1. What I liked about this podcast is you pointed out that the mistakes we thought were in bible are actually not mistakes. It’s our misunderstanding of scripture. The issue about the 430 years kind of made me think. But as you said reading the meaning showed me that actually the prophecy did come to pass. I always knew the bible was the absolute and so it did not sit down well with me. Also with me I took it as an overlap that is still within the time space that God spoke of. I told myself it cannot be it obviously means it’s probably the way I’m reading the scripture. It certainly is true that heavens and earth will pass away but his word will never.

    1. Thanks! As we said in the podcast, it is very strange that these message ministers choose to throw the Bible under the bus and don’t look at how people for the past several thousand years have explained these issues. What the message ministers did was simply go to a website that tries to discredit the Bible and take a few random issues in an attempt to make Deut 18:20-22 seem not to apply in these situations.

      The Bible does hold up under careful scrutiny while WMB does not.

  2. I think these pastors are secretly atheist and do not care about the Bible or its authenticity. I was talking to someone from a sect of the message in South Africa, that now worships their pastor (Edgar Hill Roscoe) who blatantly said WMB lied just like the Bible lied. Then he tore the Bible to peace until there was nothing left. Then I realised that for the pastor to push his sinister agenda of being worshipped he needs to remove the base of the Bible and then use the spoken words to insinuate his rhetoric. Tru Christianity is based on the Bible

  3. This is Wisper Gwena, I have followed your comments on my sermons starting with the very first episode. I had thought to not comment but let me break my silence and respond lest your followers think that we do not have answers or are afraid to respond. I am prepared to also respond live in an interview if that can be facilitated.

    To begin with, you have taken clips of my sermons which leave followers to your podcast with a skewed view of my sermons. My first request is why don’t you provide a link to the full sermons so that people can listen to the full sermons and then make their own judgement about what I preached? I can make available links if required.

    1. Thanks for your comment… you are braver than most message pastors that I know. We took clips that we thought were representative of the points you raised but it is simply not possible to quote your entire sermon. If your sermons were readily available, then we would provide a link to the sermons. However, I tried to get access to your sermons several weeks ago but to date have not been able to. If I can’t get access then there is no point in providing a link.

      I will send you an email as I would be happy to engage in a discussion that would allow you to address the issues in an open and honest fashion. We are not trying to present a one-sided view but are interested in a balanced discussion of the many issues which we raised on our website over 5 years ago.

    2. I have been privy to what is preached in these sermons and would say the view anyone gets is not skewed in any way. I had a hard time sitting through these sermons as some of the information presented was a misrepresentation of the issues raised and unverifiable answers to some of the inconsistencies raised.

      I admire your courage to come and comment but I know what you have here are not answers but excuses. This is what an excuse looks like: “Please let’s be honest in heart !!! If there are things we don’t understand let us just say there are things we don’t understand and wait for God to clear them for us” (Wisper Gwena- OTS Episode 46). I know that you are not afraid of responding this is why I am waiting for your appearance on the podcast!

      Smart MESSage pastors will stay away from these issues because they know they are indefensible. Your predecessor G.S Chitsinde will obviously agree with me here since he has not responded to a single issue I raised on his pulpit but instead of giving orders to his followers to beat me up. Not knowing if you have conferred with him on this matter. If you had not done so, I would suggest you hold off until after the podcast.

  4. I respond to the comments raised in your episode 3 as follows:

    The clip you played in your recent episode on the scripture on Israel sojourning in Israel for 400 years, you took an extract that leaves your followers thinking I was teaching our congregation to not believe the bible yet that is not the impression that anyone who listens to the full sermon will ever get. I find the way you are extracting clips without giving the full context of the argument most misleading and typical of a red herring. John Collins in his comments tries to reinforce the same by emphasising that I was doing the bible down which is far from the truth.

    The simple point my sermon was making in giving these examples was for us to learn from scriptural precedents. Anyone that takes the bible on face value will see the difference between 400 years and 430 years as a contradiction. Bible critics cite this as one of the contradictions in the bible. But we bible believers all know there is NO MISTAKE in the Word of God. It follows there is a revelation that is behind the difference between the 400 years and the 430 years which unless it is explained to you or revealed to you, you will not know.

    I find it most strange that you people are happy to dig up explanations to defend the bible (which I also do because I believe the bible is 100% accurate) but you cannot accept when we use the same concept on defending the message. You brand this as cognitive dissonance and red herrings. We defend the bible on the basis that it is the absolute Word of God and we stand against ALL bible critics on the revelation that the bible is true. Critics of the bible take us to be crazy when we take such a position and consider us to be heretics who are deceived and lost but we are happy to be branded whatever they may because we have a revelation that the bible is right.

    SO LET THIS BE WITH US WHO HAVE A REVELATION ABOUT WILLIAM BRANHAM’S MESSAGE. We are not ashamed to say that we apply exactly the same precedents on the message of Brother Branham because we believe that the message is the truth. There are things that on face value can be criticised in the message, but just like there is an explanation behind the 400 years, there are also explanations about those things you raise criticisms on with the message. Just like you are satisfied with your explanations on the bible, I am also satisfied with my own explanations of such bible scriptures as the 400/430 years which though my explanations may not match yours but still I defend the bible. In a similar way I am also satisfied with my explanations about the message though they may not fit your critic’s position. Not only do my explanations fit me, but we have a whole message community that is very satisfied with the same explanations even after going through your website. You may call us deluded and deceived, but bible critics have called us thus for years and we are unmovable on the bible. In the same way, message critics can call us thus and we remain unmoveable because we have a revelation on what we believe.

    Coming to the scripture of God asking Elijah to anoint Hazael and Jehu, again the point in my sermon was for us to learn from scriptural precedent which you try and dismiss as being red herrings. How can scriptural precedent be taken to be red herrings when God says my ways are not your ways? For us to learn the ways of God we have to get into His way of looking at things and not use our ways. We can ONLY learn God’s ways from scriptural precedent. God clearly asked Elijah to anoint Hazael, Jehu and Elisha which we know Elijah died without anointing Jehu. Applying the way you critics of the message would look at things, you would have concluded that Elijah died with a failed vision. In your episode 3 you try to give an explanation saying that Elijah was a ‘disobedient’ prophet but NOT a false prophet. That is your way of trying to defend the bible. As I said earlier, I might not agree with your explanation in defending the bible BUT I agree with the concept and the objective. My point in my sermon was we have a scriptural precedent of things said to a prophet which a prophet does NOT fulfil and yet we still accept him to be a prophet because we know the bible is 100% right. Whether we understand the reason behind Elijah dying before fulfilling what God asked him to do or not, we still defend the bible. We are NOT called to ONLY understand the bible BUT we are called to ONLY believe the bible; by and by we will understand the reasons. SO LET IT BE FOR US WHO BELIEVE THE MESSAGE.

    There are things you brand as failed visions which for us we have explanations for. If you don’t accept our explanations it does not mean we don’t have explanations. You simply want to dismiss our explanations just like bible critics dismiss our explanations about the bible; it’s the same spirit.

    Let me conclude this portion of my response to your episode 3 comments by this; if the message of William Marrion Branham (OUR PROPHET) was just a written message, we could have been confused by your criticisms. However, God in his infinite wisdom made sure that the message of WMB was recorded on tape. Whilst listening to the tape, we are all able to discern the SPIRIT behind what we will be listening to. We are all able to make our individual choices on whether Brother Branham was trying to bring us to himself or to Christ. We are all able to judge whether his gift was fake or real. As for me, every time I listen to them tapes I come up with one conclusion, THE SPIRIT THAT BROTHER BRANHAM OPERATED UNDER WAS THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Even though I may fail to explain some things BUT the Spirit I discern coming from those tapes is the SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and I can’t deny that. To me the ultimate test of the message is the type of Christianity it has produced in my life. I have lived the highest form of Christianity in my life in THIS MESSAGE. This message has made me a more solid bible believer and has brought me closer to the Lord Jesus Christ – HOW CAN I FIND FAULT WITH IT WHEN THAT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED IN MY LIFE?

    1. Pastor Gwena, I have sent you an email but have not yet received a response. Were you serious about discussing these issues in a podcast?

      As you can see from another comment from someone that I do not know, it appears that John and I are not the only ones that think that the excerpts we took from your 2 hour sermon were representative. The reason we must conclude that you were throwing the Bible under the bus in front of your congregation is that in your extremely long sermon, you gave no reasonable explanation for the two discrepancies you highlighted (Abraham and Elijah). We provided a reasonable explanation on our podcast for both.

      You also gave no reasonable BIBLICAL explanation for the discrepancies that we see exhibited in WMB’s ministry. That is why we must conclude that your use of the erroneous biblical “discrepancies” must be considered red herrings. You say that you applied biblical precedents in your sermon but you did not. There was no attempt on your part in your sermon to explain why or how the examples you used (Abraham and Elijah) had anything to do with the message discrepancies. This is the sign of a red herring. You do not use proper logic in your argumentation. Yelling and screaming that something is a biblical precedent does not make it so.

      The “message community” is not happy with the explanations because they avoid any explanation like the plague. As one ex-message follower told us, “I thought my pastor had examined these issues and that he had our best interest in mind. But I came to learn that was false.” These issues are not examined. I do applaud you for trying to do so but when you hide your sermons behind the security of your website, it appears disingenuous.

      The explanations we have heard are at best grasping at straws, which is what happens according to cognitive dissonance theory. Have you read Festinger’s landmark study in “When Prophecy Fails”. If not, then I don’t know how you can attempt to speak knowledgeably on the issue of cognitive dissonance.

      You make statements that are not based on scripture. That is my foundation. That is the foundation of the CHRISTIAN church.

      God did not ask WMB to shoot a brown bear! WMB said THUS SAITH THE LORD that I WILL shoot a brown bear. As soon as he did that, he opened himself up to be judged according to Deut 18:20-22. Based on your explanation of how to apply that passage, it could never be applied because any “prophet” with a failed vision could give the same lame excuse that you provide for WMB… “sorry I messed up.” That excuse is not valid for Deut 18:20-22.

      You cannot discern whether his gift was fake or real if you have not talked to the people who were the subject of the gift. Have you read the testimony of Alfred Pohl. Have you read the comments of Walter Hollenweger who was WMB’s interpreter in Europe? He concluded that WMB’s discernment gift appeared amazingly accurate but actual healings were RARE. Of course you won’t believe that because of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.

      WMB operated under a spirit which pointed to WMB and not to Christ. Colossians 2:18-19 applies to WMB: Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

      Finally, what has been achieved in your life. If WMB’s message caused it you should be worried. Jesus Christ changed my life. It is him who I serve and none other. God will not share his glory with anyone. The spirit of God does not come through the tapes, but certainly, the spirit of WMB does.

      I am aware of Muslims who have been delivered from drug abuse and thus give praise to Allah and say what you say – HOW CAN I FIND FAULT WITH IT WHEN THAT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED IN MY LIFE?

      What matters is truth. Truth agrees with the facts because truth is a quality of factual evidence. If you have problems with our evidence, we will be happy to state publicly where our evidence is not factual. But making intellectually dishonest statements that you should ignore the facts is not something that we are prepared to overlook.

      1. Hi Wisper
        Appreciate your effort. At least now, there’s some form of dialogue.

        You cite Genesis 15:13 & Exodus 12:40 as contradictory, hence worth tagging “failed prophecy”.
        It’s common knowledge that Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) was not an Israelite. It should not be that taxing to deduce that Abrahamic era precedes that of The Law by over 500 years. How you choose to retrospectively pursue Abraham accusing him by The Law he of which he absolutely knew nothing of, is astounding.

        Exodus 1:7, clearly states that, children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them, over the tenure of Joseph.
        This, Notwithstanding 400years of affliction and captivity (Genesis 15:13), when a Pharaoh without knowledge of Joseph’s exploits assumed power, I’m sure is a satisfactory explanation to critics, Christians, Jews and the like, except yourself.
        How you, (I don’t know anyone else), insist there’s contradiction in Genesis 15:13 & Exodus 12:40, is most amazing.

        ..and of Elijah, who, taken by heavenly chariot (rapture), having anointed Elisha with a spirit of Elijah? Well,… that speaks for itself.

        Wisper, you also made strong, damning accusations that Rod regarding Splitting his former church. In the light of his response, do you still stand by your statement?
        ..and of course, explanations of numerous failed visions/prophecies?

        Cheers

        Tony M

    2. Hi Wisper
      Its great to see that you are willing to stand for the message. I don’t agree completely with your line of argument. The bible doesn’t say the God gave Abraham or Elijah a vision. It says God spoke to them. In the same way the bible doesn’t tell us that Elijah said ‘Thus saith the lord I will anoint Hazael. Its often difficult for folk to follow a written debate so I am really looking forward to your podcast with Rod and John. One of the main concerns I have about the message is that nobody would ever give me scriptural answers to my questions. I was told that things were correct as long as the prophet said them. I am genuinely looking forward to see you give a valid scriptural account of what makes brother Branham a prophet.
      Thanks and God bless you
      Tony

    3. Pastor Gwena, do you apply the same standard to other so called prophets like Joseph Smith, etc? Why try other so called prophets by the Bible but give Branham a free pass?

  5. Wisper Gwena, I have listened to the full sermon sent to me by one of your church members. To be honest no one will have the time to listen to some of what you say in there as it is irrelevant to what you were addressing. Your sermon was long and not to the point. I agree that the clips were representative of the points you raised. Your congregation would say Amen even to things which were your own perspective and not the actual facts. I will be happy to hear of your responses too.

  6. I would like to hear pastor Gwena answering questions about the story of man from Windsor and the story of William Brahman ‘s cloud hoax.

    I wonder why message believers defend William Brahman ‘s lies and deceptions.

    Through cognitive dissonance message pastors have found a way of avoiding pertinent questions about William Brahman ‘s hoaxes and deceptions by pointing to what they think are errors in the bible.Istead of addressing the issues that were raised about William Brahman ‘s lies,hoaxes ,failed prophecies they are now discussing about what they see as errors in the bible.This is cognitive dissonance and red herring .

    If this pastor Gwena decide to have a public interview with Rod and Jonh they must not tell Mr Gwena to address issues that were raised concerning Branham ‘s lies first .After addressing those issues then they must go for the bible.

  7. Rod your explanation on God asking Elijah vs WMB saying I will kill a brown bear has a fundamental flaw. Your explanation can only be valid under the assumption that another Prophet came and told Elijah God’s instruction and then Elijah was disobedient to God’s instruction. We have no record of God using another Prophet to bring this instruction neither do we have any basis for such an assumption. As a Prophet, God would have spoken to Elijah directly in a vision or in dream or any other way. It follows then that at the time of God’s instruction to Elijah, it was ONLY Elijah who would have shared the instruction. This then becomes the same as when WMB saw a vision and shared it as God’s Word to Him. Applying your critics perspective, Elijah dying without his vision being fulfilled would have been a failed vision in your standards. That’s the scriptural precedent that you fail to see and yet it was very apparent to our congregation.

    As I said in my previous response, I find it most strange that you do not brand your process of justifying this Elijah scripture as cognitive dissonance but yet when we apply the same process on justifying our Prophet you brand it as cognitive dissonance. It’s strange how you cannot see that in both situations there is harmonisation of cognitions. I think it’s time you become honest with yourself and accept that you have been taken over by a spirit that seeks to just drag God’s Prophet WMB under the bus at all costs.

    You question whether I have read Festinger’s cognitive dissonance theory, you don’t know my educational background neither do you know how well read or unread I am, so it’s safe not to make assumptions. However, I believe the gospel is supposed to be presented in simple plain language which the common man can hear gladly.

    I notice you try and delude people with theories, psychological explanations and dictionary definitions that try and confuse a simple issue. A typical example is when you tried to define fact and truth in your episode 1 by dictionary definitions when the example I gave was simple and straight forward and could be followed by any common man. Your whole evidence gathering to disprove God’s Prophet is based on finding facts. John questions WMB’s birthday based on documental evidence which is exactly the same as the example I gave of my birthday. There are many reasons why a document can have different information to the TRUE position. You are putting a man (WMB) that is no longer here on trial when truth could only be established from him. I wonder how you even believe the bible if your belief system is based on evidence. What evidence do you have that Moses saw a burning bush?

    You mentioned that I cannot discern whether WMB’s gift was fake or real unless I talk to people who were the subject of the gift. Has spiritual discernment been reduced to interviews now??? Where then is the Holy Spirit I wonder? I tell you, any genuine Christian with the Spirit of Christ if you get them to listen to the Tapes of WMB they can tell you what Spirit was on the man. Even TL Osborne saw Christ in the man and called it his second vision of Jesus Christ.
    You quote “discernments were accurate by healings were rare”. With your 40 years that you spent in the message, have you forgotten that the Prophet said the discernment does NOT heal you? Be that as it may, we no longer go by just the testimonies of healings on tapes only. We have many healings and testimonies among believers which came after discernment BY TAPES. We have testimonies of the PILLAR OF FIRE that you dispute coming down on a tape being played. We have countless miracles that have taken place because of this message. SO YOUR EVIDENCES OF HEALINGS BEING RARE IS TOTALLY MEANINGLESS TO US. God has done proved to us the reality of this message.

    “Finally, what has been achieved in your life. If WMB’s message caused it you should be worried. Jesus Christ changed my life. It is him who I serve and none other”. 
    I find it strange that you cannot believe that God uses a MAN ministry to bring people to Himself. What happened to the Scriptures like Rom 10:14-15 – how shall they hear without a preacher; 1 Corin 1:21 – it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe; 1 Corin 11:1 – be ye followers of me even as I follow Christ. How can it be worrying to be brought to Christ through a message of WMB. Unfortunately in this case of what has been achieved in my life, I am the judge because it happened to me and I speak for myself. The Message of WMB brought me to my LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST and I am not ashamed to say were it not for WMB, I would not know Christ the way I know Him today.

    Finally Rod, we can debate about facts and evidences and visions etc, BUT the ultimate test is in the life. The bible tells us a tree is known by its fruits. My testimony is THE MESSAGE OF WMB PRODUCES A CHRISTIAN LIFE IN PEOPLE. That I am a witness of and NOBODY can tell me otherwise. I wonder what type of a life the so called people who left the message are now living? We hear of former deacons now alcoholics – lets give it time and by their fruits we shall know them.

    1. Pastor Gwena,

      You say that message believers are happy with the explanations they have received. However, I never received any explanations and there are thousands of people who have left the message who never received any adequate explanation. And there are thousands more who are still in the message and have never heard an explanation. These are the people that continue to leave the message.

      I will be posting my detailed response to your comments on the Believe The Sign website – click here

      1. I was typing a reply, paused to read believethesign and people you are pointing to as real christians and real church. And your sources of evidence. Now am not sure what to say.
        Appalled that you don’t even acknowledge that Pentecostals had a higher Christianity than the folks you listed (some of who were saints according to the revelation in their day and overcame).
        Amazed that you think the church that believes in the trinity is close to God.
        Do you want a message believer to even go into the merits of Presbyterian doctrine since you think it is better than the message (you cited Tim Keller- a presbyterian)
        In any case, there is always something bad to say, if you are
        determined.
        Am appalled that if you had a question to ask you’d ask a non-christian and trust their answer more than a christian (your methodology is to talk to skeptics of the message, those who heard and were unaffected, and backslidden Christians then take their words as fact)- It’s like asking an enemy to vouch for their adversary. That is either innocent, naive or just foolish.
        Adios, if you are still deluded that you are right, peace be to you.
        God have mercy on you.

        1. Pentecostals have a “higher Christianity”??? That is a perfect example of warped message thinking.

          What matters is what the Bible teaches and not what WMB taught. I have learned a great deal from Tim Keller, but that does not mean I espouse Presbetyrian doctrine. Nicky Gumbel has significantly impacted my life through the Alpha course but that does not require me to believe Anglican doctrine.

          What you have not addressed are the failures in WMB’s visions. You have not answered any of our myriad questions which can be found on our website. No, as most message believers, you pick a red herring, focus on that and simply ignore our concerns and questions. That is exactly what happened when we were in the message and started asking questions. No one responded except a few like Lonnie Jenkins, who admitted that the had no good answers.

          And we are deluded?? Really???

          1. Pentecostals had higher christianity than protestants, they accepted the baptism of the holy ghost- fact. Just as methodists had better christianity than catholics when they began- again, a fact.
            Can I answer for a man I never saw? no. Do I trust him or you and army of skeptics? Him all day long.
            Now the Bible is true, so you know this:
            You say Branham was wrong to say sex was not God’s plan and explain Psalm 51:5 in YOUR opinion.
            You forget something important:
            Jesus is a son of God
            He was not born of sex but of the Word, yet a physical human being by all attributes
            Adam was not of sex either
            So God has two humans made of the Word.
            You misconstrue Branham to say that men were to be made of dust. He said to be created by the Word just like Adam and later Jesus.
            FYI My parents are alive yet I can’t even verify their respective years of birth despite asking my uncles and grandparents.
            Good luck finding out from neighbors and authorities about brother Branham when many of these neighbors never thought much of him anyway.
            So yeah, I can’t defend His visions, but soon, LA will sink, the US will be downed by Russia and I hope you’ll just be saved by then.
            See the thing is: He was God’s prophet
            You also say Michael was not Christ :
            Revelation 12 makes quite a case, I mean captain of the Lord’s Army? 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

            8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

            9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

            10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
            Joshua bowed to the captain of the Lord’s host and we know he bow to an angel:
            13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

            14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

            15 And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
            And just for reference, let me add Daniel 12:1 here:
            12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
            Questions: Who defeats Satan? Who defends Israel? Jesus.
            Now don’t be mistaken, I won’t go toe to toe, just showing how your arguments are flimsy at best when examined by the same bible you use.
            I see you also say God chose Saul, true. But who made the choice really? In this narrative, Samuel is told to “hearken to the people” that sure is democracy .
            8 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.

            2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.

            3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.

            4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

            5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

            6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.

            7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

            8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

            9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

            10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king.

            11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

            12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

            13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

            14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

            15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

            16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

            17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

            18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

            19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

            20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

            21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the Lord.

            22 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

            In chapter 9, God shows it was thee cry of Israel that led to Saul. So God sends Samuel to ANNOINT Saul.
            15 Now the Lord had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying,

            16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.
            Different from David’s case if you read the bible.
            Just showing that many of your interpretations actually fail the Word test.
            May God intervene for His own glory and honor.

          2. It always amazes me how cognitive dissonance can cause people to ignore the plain meaning of scripture and ignore what WMB actually said. You can see all of WMB’s quotes alongside what the Bible says if you click here.

            WMB said the people CHOSE Saul. They DIDN’T. The scripture you quoted says that GOD CHOSE SAUL. It is true that the people wanted a king and that was where they disobeyed God. They rejected Samuel in favor of a king. But they did not end up with a democracy as WMB stated. You are simply ignoring WMB’s own words.

            You also reject sound biblical teaching regarding Michael in favor of Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. The Watchtower says, “Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah’s chief angel, or archangel.” (The Watchtower, February 1, 1991, page 17) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Son of God to be “Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the Scriptures to be Michael the archangel.… ” (The Watchtower, February 15, 1979, page 31)

          3. Regarding Michael being Christ, are you aware that, as with many things William Branham taught, he was incredibly confused. In fact, in 1963 he stated that Michael was Christ but later stated that Michael was just another angel.

            That’s your “go to” for revelation????

            Not that there wasn’t worthy people there, now, like an Angel; like, for instance, we would say, Gabriel, or Michael. But, remember, it had to be a Kinsman. Remember, John said here, “And no m-a-n,” not Angel, not Seraphim. They hadn’t sinned, but They were in a different category. They had never fallen. (63-0317E, para. 163)

            Then there is a supernatural Angel comes down from the Lord, a Messenger like Gabriel, and—and Michael, Woodworm, and so forth, their names. (64-0830E, para. 65)

            Check out all the quotes here – Michael the Archangel

          4. David,
            You at first come across as reasonable and rational but reading further your comments you are as judgemental and simply dismissive as I have ever seen anyone for someone seemingly wanting facts. Why are you even commenting on here if you’re disaffected? It shows you just came here to pick a fight. On the other hand BelieveTheSign have come out with their findings and asked if anyone can prove them wrong. I’m asking you, CAN YOU PROVE THEM WRONG? By the wa, going by facts is nothing to be afraid of—its biblical precedents are evident throughout Old & New Testastements. So straighten up your act—you’re simply here for drama.

    2. Hello Whisper
      God spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. Can you please show me where he told anybody what God told him? Please show me where he said thus saith the Lord.
      If god speaks to me and gives me a task, and I tell nobody, then fail to carry out the task, am I a false prophet?
      Have you ever missed God’s perfect will?

      Also before you criticise ex-message folk take a look at the people around Bro Brahman. People who he approved and gave his blessing. In particular the tape boys and Jim Jones.

      Let’s have a debate about WB ministry in light of the word.

      Gbu
      Tony

    3. Sorry, Pastor Gwena, but your explanation makes no sense in the light of the plain meaning of scripture. Who said he received a vision? We read in 1 Kings 19:

      …and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria: And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.

      How can you confuse the Bible saying that God spoke to Elijah in a STILL SMALL VOICE being a vision? This is the result of cognitive dissonance. You give the appearance that you can’t even read scripture for its plain meaning. Is defending WMB more important than taking scripture as it clearly reads?

      1. Rod

        You miss the point completely here Rod. I said God would have spoken to Elijah in a vision or in a dream OR ANY OTHER WAY. In 1 Kings 19 vs 5 God speaks to Elijah by His Angel, vs 9 says the Word of the Lord came to him BUT we are not told in what form, vs 12 was the still small voice BUT vs 13 says there came A Voice no longer still small voice. Vs 15 then says “and the Lord said unto him…” but it does not tell us how the Lord spoke this time. So in the same chapter we see God speaking to his prophet in different ways.

        But the point you miss in my argument is that GOD SPOKE TO ELIJAH DIRECTLY. Whether by still small voice or by a voice or by His Word coming to Elijah or by His Angel or by ANY OTHER WAY, the point is God spoke to Elijah directly.

        My argument was as long as God spoke directly to Elijah it follows that for anyone else to have heard of God’s instruction for Elijah to anoint Hazael and Jehu, they would have heard it from Elijah himself. Now if the Word of God that came to Elijah directly was NOT executed and Elijah who was the source of what God said to him directly died without that portion of the Word coming to pass then according to your critics mindset, Elijah failed the Deuteronomy 18 test and that constituted a FAILED vision (VISION HERE BEING THE WORD OF GOD TO ELIJAH). This then becomes the equivalent of the failed visions you accuse Bro Branham of. But we know the Elijah issue was NOT a failed WORD of God (failed Vision) but that God’s ways are NOT our ways.

        This argument is very simple to follow to any one who does not have cognitive dissonance, you missing this point is a pure sign of your cognitive dissonance. You then want to through a red herring by trying to play with words Vision vs Still Small Voice. Don’t try to divert the point of the argument, the point of the argument is God Spoke DIRECTLY to Elijah in whatever way and it’s the equivalent of God speaking directly to Bro Branham.

  8. Bro Wisper ,

    My precious friend in the Faith I am heartened that you have responded in the way you have to Bro Rod and Co. Once in a while its nice to get a seasoned ministerial response because sometimes others respond emotionally ,in a less systematic and precise manner.(like what I will do.lol).Your responses are not for them(Rod and crew) as the issue of Bro Branham is a shut and closed case for them but its to help the brother who is ‘almost persuaded’ by their subtle explanations. Thank you bro Gwena ! Your reply for an honest man is so complete and sound !

    Rod has too much invested in this to make a U turn as there is so much at stake for him and his disciples emotionally and in some cases financially.Am sure once in a while he wonders if he is right or not but his own cognitive dissonance has taken him to a point of no return and has to finish what he has started.(Jesus said ….”do it quickly”).I wrote to Rod a few times many years ago and yes he used his much exhausted cognitive dissonance phrase which I think he now owes royalty fees, for its over-use.He is in it for the long-haul and as much as many Message believers might suspect his doom is near…I actually think he is serving his purpose to separate the wheat and the chaff because it’s Harvest time.He does not know that him and his other internet warriors are “on the Kings business”. God is never ever defeated.

    The Message to these ex brothers was an intellectual affair from the beginning. Bro Wisper like you rightfully have said, the ministry of the prophet has healed so many TODAY , and we have experienced multiple supernatural testimonies from the tapesTODAY. It intrigues me so much that we have people who will bet their life on Rods research and evidence and yet they have never met the man or even know for sure if he has any evidence and how credible the evidence. So sad that they have mustered their faith to believe secondary evidence. They have not even answered the simple question “what makes Rod credible ?”…because he is from Canada ?,because he spent 4 decades as a song leader ? , because he sounds intellectual enough to be telling the Truth ?”. Sad.

    And yet this movement has only vindicated the ministry of William Branham.Bro Branham preached what Paul preached and it’s no wonder that Paul ministry had a controversy around the Cloud, with one account saying they saw the Cloud but heard no voice and another saying they did not see Cloud and yet heard the voice.(Acts 9 vs 7 and Acts 22 vs 9). So like Paul we are right back in the beginning on Cloud controversy. There criticisms actually vindicate the Prophet is back in the Book of Acts.

    It’s a wonder that at a time when a minority of Message believers are peeling away (and they are not as many as people think ; its the devil’s illusion) the Pentecostals have started gaining a pertinent interest in William Branham from Jimmy Baker (he went through the visions) to Perry Stone who visited Tombstone in Jeffersonville and many others.They see the Prophet for who he was though they cant quite grasp the ministry in its fullness,but they know he was a Vindicated man Of God. Over 50s years after his death they still find his ministry a great fascination.

    I read sometime back of pictures someone posted about the prayer cards,saying prophet was reading the cards ,ha ha ha ! and I got into my vehicle and God through His servant the prophet said :-

    “If I bring the people up in a prayer line, and I say, “All right, now this person, you know I don’t know you.” “No, that’s right, Brother Branham.” Then right out there you’ll catch somebody that says, “Uh-huh, but he’s reading what they put on that prayer card! Telepathy!” It just verily will do it. Then I’ll say, “All right, now this Sunday we’re not going to give out any prayer cards. I want everybody here, that’s a stranger, never was in here before, you stand up.” See? And—and then the Holy Spirit will turn right around and discern what was all in them. See? Is that right? [Congregation says, “Amen.”—Ed.] You seen it both ways. “Oh, well, there is something wrong with that.” See? See? There, there is no way, you—you—you can’t…See, as long as Satan can get possession, he’ll just make you believe anything. And he’ll show you every fault that I’ve got, and I got plenty of them he can show you. Don’t you look at that! Don’t you look at that. I’m a man. See? But, remember, this Word of God is the Truth, and I’m trying to live by It.” Wiliam Branham.

    I just smiled as I listened to this in my car and said “Jesus your so good !” GLORY !

    Rod and co spue out so many misleading statements we could write a book.I laughed so hard when they tried to disprove the egg shaped car saying why did prophet not instead say “he saw people watching DVD’s, sending email on their iphones or playing games on their handheld gaming device?” Laughed my lungs out.Really. Really ! So the prophet was supposed to tell the Branham tabernacle about the fact that Steve jobs was going to invent a device called an Iphone that is connect by wifi .How laughable ! The prophet in the Old testament saw Israel returning on Eagles wings, was he supposed to say it was a Boeing 737.The prophet in O.T. seeing the aircraft described it in the closest thing he could describe it,which was an Eagle. prophet saw Ipads (probably) that he could could only relate to as a checkers board. But this goes on and on with Rods arguments.Sound clever but when you go deeper its actually laughable.

    Lastly Brian.The Cloud is no hoax even though this has repeated countlessly. This is the short of it and the mystery,Cloud Appeared and Jesus had His photo taken on February 28th,Jesus waited for his prophet to arrive a few days later but this was not visible to science but Cloud was still there.But like Bro Wisper said and I once discussed in fellowship JESUS ARRIVES EARLY FOR HIS APPOINTMENTS like he did with woman at the well.GLORY ! The prophet arrived while Jesus(the Angels the formed Cloud) waited for him and everything else that we know and believe took place.There is a very good reason why he mentions the Cloud a few sermons later and not immediately but that is a sermon and its not the explanation Jeff Jenkins and Rod think.That is a sermon in itself !!!

    Brian see this,on the actual day(a few days later) the Prophet was with Cloud and caught up in Constellation,read what he says about Cameras the day he arrived to meet the Pillar of Cloud :-

    ” And the science, all through Tucson yet, they’re writing pieces and put in the paper. Way back over there on Mount Lemmon, them big cameras didn’t see It rising up from where we was standing; drifting on towards the West, showing the time is over.”
    65-0725E – What Is The Attraction On The Mountain?

    The Cloud is NO HOAX !!!

    The prophet was the most honest man on the planet. Someone says but oh he tells his stories differently.Dont we all depending on the context,we highlight the things that matter in terms of what we are emphasizing.And there is one last mystery in bro Branham’s ministry,some of the testimonies we think are the same are not.Some of the testimonies in prophets life had a twin testimony

    You know it’s a wonder that a man with a 7th Grade education who died over 50 years ago has men spending their life dissecting his ministry DAILY to disprove him ,if anything that in itself is a great honor and a testimony that a 7th Grader can still invoke some much study,intrigue,curiosity and interest beyond his Life-time and generation. O God ‘how great thou Art !’. It’s also heartening that Rod still ,ironically ,is reading the books and the tapes…the 7th Grader still has his hook on him .GLORY !

    In conclusion to all those genuine hearted people out there listen to my precious seasoned ministers like Wisper and others are saying. If not pray hard about it ,with an open heart and God will show you the Truth. Rod and company are not going to fade quickly into the sunset because God has permitted them to run their chaos for a season and a time for his Purpose. Pray for him (earnestly) in love peradventure the Grace of God which is sovereign and knows no bounds might forgive him and save him or maybe fetch out of the fire some of his unwittingly deceived disciples. Some I know personally like you and they break my heart.But the Sovereign Grace of God can supercede some of the brainwashing…if HE permits.

    Remember “THE PURPOSE OF GOD CAN NOT BE DEFEATED”.

    Salem
    Bro Lincoln
    (ps in advance ,this is my first and last post)

    1. Hello Lincoln

      Thanks for your contribution. Are you saying that if I tell a story the facts don’t really matter. if for instance I say I had a party at my house with 1000 people and there were only 10. Or, what if I say the king came to my party and you can read about it in the national press. Yet there isn’t a single report about the king at my party in any newspaper.

      Or what if every time I tell the story about how I met my wife I change the country and some of the circumstances. Is that ok?

      Usually when I think about, and relate events in my life I try and keep them as close as I can to what actually happened. This type of accuracy of recall is very important in work when I report to my boss or indeed if I am a witness to a crime, as I was recently. Indeed the police were very keen to get as accurate picture as I could muster. Not once did they encourage vagueness In fairness I did get some of the order of events wrong but when I friends told the story I made the same mistake every time. thankfully I captured the whole event on my cell phone. When I looked at the video of the event I realised my error and now tell the story the same way every time. Should I be putting less emphasis on keeping things as factual as I can.

      At the moment we have a house meeting. There are only a few of us gather. Would it be OK to say we have over 100 attending. If I say it 10 years from now is that OK? Does the passage of time give me licence for such a change in the numbers. Please let me know. I am genuinely open to suggestion.

      What about Paul’s description of his ministry and sufferings. Would it have been ok if he increased the number of shipwrecks. What about the story of the snake biting him. Would it be ok if he changed the location every time he told the story. What if the Bible had 4 different versions in 4 different places with different outcomes.

      On another note notice, you knock Rod,s use of evidence. In the bible, Jesus took the time to appear to over 500 people. Evidence of his resurrection. He could have just gone and told nobody leaving us to simply believe he has risen again. He Didn’t

      God bless you brother. I look forward to your reply.

      Tony

      1. Tony,

        Thank you for your very brotherly manner in the way you asked.

        Tony lets put things into perspective. The books that we listen to were preached over 17 years ,unabridged and verbal sermons were put into Book form. You know we read the books as though they had an editor. Even the prophet says sometimes he gets things like numbers incorrect. He says :

        So, immediately I went to Kingston. And they—they knowed Thursday afternoon that I’d be there Friday. That’s all the advertisement we had. I’m not very good at making…?…or estimating crowds, because I usually exaggerate on it. (59-0301M – Strait Is The Gate)

        Bro Branham already confesses by his own mouth he is NOT good at estimating crowds. But let me add, this is a man who preached in his lifetime probably way over 2000 sermons over a span of 32 years of which about 17 years are on a magnetic tape. I am not going to pin a man on whether he said 10 or 20 or 30. When I read the quotes I am after the ‘essence’ of what he is saying not some arbitrary facts about numbers. As a preacher myself I have played some of my sermons over and realized I did make some errors on a fact or a day or a month etc and believe it was unintentional and brothers might note them and tell me after I am done preaching “hey by the way brother I think you meant July not March” etc etc.

        But I want to also say this.I have actually been astounded at how I can hear Bro Branham say something and say it over and over again until it almost looks like a copy and paste. Let me give you a great example at how consistent the prophet was. When prophet related the story of the piano that played the Great physician now is near, from 1950 to 1965 he consistently describes the piano keys as ivory keys.Search “piano ivory keys”. The normal person would never consistently call the keys the ‘ivory’ keys over 15 years. I have many such examples where I am actually astounded at the consistent adjectives and particular nouns the prophet repeats in relating a particular testimony over a span of several years. Outside of that testimony when talking about a piano (in whatever context)he just talks about playing a piano.

        Tony if you ever analyzed any preacher over a Span of 17 years,unabridged and unedited you would pick hundreds and thousands of inconsistencies in relating events.Bro Branham is the only man on earth whose ministry is studied through books extracted from verbal sermons to book form unedited. Considering that ,I would say he is actually pretty impressive !

        Sometime back Rod spoke about Prophet lying that he was a boy when his dad died.He proved that prophet was actually in his mid 30s. Rod asked “so why was prophet lying”. But then Tony look here what prophet says about a 35 year old:

        Then when He stood there at Durban, and I heard this doctor raging. He was a young fellow about thirty-five years old. And he said, “I want to see him out here.” (53-0508 – God Commissioning Moses)

        Tony I could on and on, the Truth is the prophet was as accurate as you can humanly get.Then there is the issue of testimonies that sound mixed up etc. Tony understand there is one fundamental difference between you and I and Bro Branham.Bro Branham over his life had tens of thousands of thousands of testimonies.If he gets mixed up on one or two or 3 , I will not hold it against him. And then there is another thing ,in some instances he has two different testimonies that sound like the same event but they are not.God things run in cycles and sometimes repetitions and we saw this with Elisha and Elijah. For example you have 2 blind men in the Spoken Word, one was a shoe cobbler and the other sold newspapers.They were both pronounced healed but did not get healed immediately and then they both went back to ask the prophet why and then the prophet encouraged them to believe and they both Praised God for their healing in a dramatic fashion,one was healed in a barber shop and the other in a car. I believe this is not the only incidence of a mirror testimony. So there is also that angle.

        God bless you Tony.

      2. Tony,

        Sorry just one more thing. Just because there are no newspaper records ,it does not mean something did not happen. This is reason why there was mis-information about Jesus coming from Nazareth.Some said he cant be Messiah because Messiah should come from Bethlehem.Do you know Jesus actually left it that way, he never stood on a Soap box and say “here is my birth certificate”. Tony you got to understand how God works, sometimes God wants to be followed not because of a newspaper cutting or county records but by Faith. Faith is the basis our Faith. The evidence we have that is bolder than any Newspaper cutting is we see the same miracles on those tapes manifesting in our lives.

        You said Jesus took the time to appear to 500 as evidence of his Resurrection.However Tony we were not part of that 500 and we believe he is risen by Faith ,which is Revelation. Evidence can only take us so far but there is a point where Revelation has to be the basis of what we believe.

        Salem
        Bro Lincoln

    2. A very well presented piece but it is still laced with the same condescending attitude of message believers. Before we decide who prays for whom let’s address the issues at hand. Also, the truth is going nowhere, it’s still the truth before and after prayer.

      I am going to be brief. I will respond to your issues with bullets and not beat too much about the bush. I will not address what I think are minor issues. Was Paul there when “his cloud” appeared yes or no? As this is a rhetoric ill answer for you, yes. Was WMB there when the cloud appeared yes or no? Lest take a quote: “There is a Cloud hanging, twenty-six miles high. That’s fifteen miles, or twenty, above even where vapor is at. They don’t know what it’s all going about, and they are trying to investigate It. And there, RIGHT UNDER IT, I was standing” (63-0628M – O Lord, Just Once More)

      WMB says he was there when the cloud pic was taken on 28 Feb 63! Again you have posted a quoted that Jesus keeps his appointments (nice ring to it) but that is not what he said in the other place so this is a case of quote versus quote! What a confusion! The quotes cancel each other out! These are exactly opposite statements. Anyway, a further analysis will show the truth of the matter. In the ONLY BELIEVE ARTICLE – ROAD TO SUNSET Rebekah Branham admitted that on 28 Feb his dad was 1200 miles away, defending a homosexual transvestite who had been placed on death row. So all these back and forth quotes were masking the real truth that he was not there….interesting!

      Jimmy Baker and Perry Stone have they been converted to the message? Most pentecostal guys mention WMB to piggyback on his MO and make it in their own ministries. You know this well since you follow them quite widely. You would know Benny Hinn, he talks highly of him only to say that he went insane because he could not contain the anointing that was given to him and he ended up calling himself ELIJAH same as ALEXANDER DOWIE who also called himself ELIJAH. This clip was taken by overzealous MESSage pastors who cut out the negative part. Am I allowed to laugh at this point?

      In your quote where WMB said he would wait for next Sunday to do it without prayer cards. Why wait for Next Sunday when that anointing can be turned on and off like a switch? Not saying he did not have a gift of discernment. But sometimes we end up glorifying the gift more than the giver and God is JEALOUS! He had notable errors in this discernment that he claimed was 100% perfect like here: “Now, when He come to Simon, He told him who he was. You believe God can tell me what your name is? Would it make you believe more? It would? Mrs. Strong…[The sister says, “Stout.”—Ed.] Stout, would you believe? Go and believe, and you…It’s all over. Amen” (64-0307 – A Testimony On The Sea)

      Also if discernment was a messianic sign why is everyone doing it now? You may its false but that is what others will say about your prophet. WMB said Jesus appeared to the Jews, Samaritans and then he will appear lastly to the Gentiles under the same messianic sign which cannot be impersonated (the one that hits 100%).

      1. Elisha,

        My eyes were watery to almost crying looking at your email.So sad.For the great respect I have for Chikosi heritage I wont mudsling with you.Am sure the prayers of the saints are going up daily.

        I was not going to respond.

        But Elisha just for the record.You said

        (Was WMB there when the cloud appeared yes or no? Lest take a quote: “There is a Cloud hanging, twenty-six miles high. That’s fifteen miles, or twenty, above even where vapor is at. They don’t know what it’s all going about, and they are trying to investigate It. And there, RIGHT UNDER IT, I was standing” (63-0628M – O Lord, Just Once More)

        WMB says he was there when the cloud pic was taken on 28 Feb 63!) end of Elisha quote.

        Elisha if you read the quote carefully the prophet is not saying he is under cloud on February 28th. That is nowhere on the quote.Remember Cloud was there on February 28th and stayed there until prophet arrived. Picture was taken on February 28th but disappeared from public view BUT WAS STILL THERE.The prophet arrives and yes he was right under that Cloud when he arrives.

        Lets repeat the quote again carefully and my remarks are in brackets.

        “There is a Cloud hanging, twenty-six miles high. That’s fifteen miles, or twenty, above even where vapor is at. They don’t know what it’s all going about, and they are trying to investigate It. And there,(but he does not say which day he was there) right under it, I was standing”.(and yes he was there a few days later right under it standing).

        He never says “there on that day the picture was taken I was right under it standing.”

        Then the famous stout and strong discernment.Two things. lets say prophet got that name wrong ,that is one out of way over 30,000 discernments,even if he got 3 wrong , I was a process and data analyst recently ,do you know statistically that is considered 100% accuracy.That is 0.3333333% error. Secondly if you are student of the discernments you will know when prophet mixes up a name ,in the extremely few times he does,he corrects it immediately but what happened here the person responded back too quick…whenever a scenerio like this happens ,give it a few seconds and the Angel corrects prophet and then he says “Pardon me I meant to say ……”. ALWAYS the Angel corrects it. The lady in that particular quickly responded in a snap,had she waited he would have said “Pard me my sister I meant Stout”.

        Elisha I will tell you this. I have seen everything you are asking me ,all those points you are giving me about Stout and the quotes about Cloud.I have been through every quote on the Cloud and after studying the issue myself I even come out stronger in my Faith in this Message. Elisha I came to this Faith at the age of 11 years without a single relative in the Faith.I can tell you my brother there is nothing as majestic as this Message.There is no grade 7 guy who could have been this smart.And to what avail anyway…the prophet would have been more popular as a conformist.Elisha does it not amaze you that the prophet said years after his gone these tapes would be rolling on. These are not cunningly devised fables,he could not have been that smart …this is Truth and this is Life.

        We keep praying.

        Salem
        Bro Lincoln

        1. Thank you for that response. Your response, however, lacks very fundamental knowledge of the timing of events and what really happened. I had expected that I would converse with someone who did his homework but to the contrary.

          In your response, you said this; “the prophet is not saying he is under the cloud on February 28th. That is nowhere on the quote. Remember the Cloud was there on February 28th and stayed there until prophet arrived. Picture was taken on February 28th but disappeared from public view BUT WAS STILL THERE. The prophet arrives and yes he was right under that Cloud when he arrives.”

          This response clearly shows that you are making up things as you go to mislead people who are reading your comments. There are multiple problems with your statement. When the prophet said “I was right under it” he meant the cloud that was shown on the Life magazine which was not a spiritual or supernatural one at the time it was photographed.

          What you said is ridiculous and loses touch with sanity. The cloud appears on 28 Feb and was photographed. It then disappears and then appears again 8 days later when WMB gets to Rattlesnake Mesa, only that this time there is no photograph to prove that it appears again. Again there are problems with this illogical explanation.

          1. WMB said that the cloud was formed as the angels left him.
          2. George Smith is on record for saying that WMB was not there on 28 Feb when the cloud appeared but he was there in another dimension. This also presents a challenge: he says Gene Norman and Fred Sothman were there as witnesses when the cloud appears, so did he take them with him in this dimension too?
          3. The cloud was physically visible until sunset and was never seen again. Even 8 days later when WMB finally appeared!
          4. On Feb 28 the Cloud appeared in the evening whilst the angels stated by WMB appeared in the morning. We cannot link these 2 since WMB could not time travel with witnesses
          5. WMB started hunting after March 7th that is 8 days after the cloud had been photographed. The cloud was not seen again after the 28th!
          6. There was a second cloud that was mentioned in the Life Magazine and you can read the magazine here to refresh your memory: http://www.williambranham.com/the-cloud-1963/
          Message people attach great importance to the cloud on the front cover but not the second one that appears in a smaller picture in the same magazine.
          7. WMB was 200 from Flagstaff, where the cloud appeared and the shape of the cloud would have looked flat from that position.
          8. WMB says absolutely nothing about the cloud in all the “visions” that he gave and the seals until he sees the Cloud in the magazine. This was the first time he talks about it. Could it be that he thought he could get prophetic mileage from associating something that had skipped him?
          9. If WMB said the cloud appeared when the angels were leaving him why then did the Cloud appear 8 days before the visitation of the angels?
          10. People say that WMB said privately that the angels had been waiting for him 7 days before he arrived (God keeps his appointment defence) – but this occurs nowhere on the tapes and cannot be verified. This may be something a believer simply made up to explain the time problem.

          The cloud story is porous and a HOAX! It is one of the greatest HOAXES in the message that is why they all came public to explain the timing of events and spiritualize his presence on that fateful 28th of Feb 1963. If they had not done that, there would probably be no message to talk about today. Mind you they came out in response to research made by Peter Dyzer who looked at the evidence from WMB’s quotations how he announced that he would go to Texas over 1200 away to defend a homosexual young man who was getting a death penalty. It is also interesting to note that WMB told the young man to claim that he was Elijah the prophet in his defence and therefore written off as insane, that is how he survived the electric chair. Very classic!

          Your defence of the wrong discernments shows that you are either coming up with new standards of measuring God or you don’t have an idea of how God works. God does not have 0.00000000000000000000001 error. If he does he is no longer God but man. WMB would wait for the angel of the Lord before he started to make his discernment. Maybe you will know that the tapes had a lot of blank spots on tape when the discernments started. Another thing is that WMB had a button on the pulpit that controlled the tapes. Is this why he made plus/ minus 10 discernments in his meetings? The prayer cards had all the information he would use in his discernment, did he have knowledge of this information prior to his “discernment?” In trying to see what is happening with the blank spots it was found that VOGR removed some of the failed discernments. There is proof between current and former spoken word books. VOGR have removed the tape called “Audio letter to Lee Vayle” where WMB markets himself like he did in no other tape. He tells Vayle to inject things in the Church ages which will lead people to come to a conclusion that he as the 7th age messenger of Mal 4.

          WMB himself says this “You can go to my hometown and find it one time, in ALL the times that It’s ever told anything, that didn’t come to pass just exactly the way It said. Now, you pin a sign on my back as a false prophet, and I’ll walk through your streets. Cause it’s not myself, I’m a man, but He’s God. And He’s the One Who does the saying”. (53-1106 – Do You Now Believe?)

          It used to baffle me how someone can get it wrong on prophecy and get it right on discernment. In that same vein, I will challenge you to give me just one unambiguous prophecy made publicly on tape before it happened which happened as prophecied. You will find there is none! NONE! ZERO! What kind of a prophet does not have one prophecy? So let’s analyse this; what is harder? Discernment or prophecy? Discernment has the character of God – “discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart” so this means it should be harder. This is why it came as part of the second pull after the 33 prophecies had already been made. So how come he gets it right 99.6666667% on discernment according to you (I don’t know how you arrived at that figure), and get it 100% wrong on prophecy (since he has not one fulfilled prophecy made publicly on tape before it happened).

          Where you say the angel corrected him was maybe him remembering the name that was on the prayer card. Look at how the TB Joshuas do their discernments. He gets the people’s details WMB style and then does the discernments. All of them including angels have borrowed this trick from the prophet. You will say these prophets are fake and this is exactly what they will also say of WMB. What these guys have is just a very good memory and not “angels” as we like to think.

          An uneducated man can be learned. You do not have to be educated to be smart. Actually, the knowledge that is acquired on a personal level sticks more than the one which is crammed for regurgitation in exams. WMB is said to have read books on psychology and hypnotism. No wonder why he performed TELEKINESIS on the bed of Georgie Carter. The things that this man secretly into will amaze any honest Christian. This is why I am praying for all of my relatives who are still trapped in this cult.

          Message believers have shown that they put WMB above the Bible. This is why they will swallow everything he says even though it has no scriptural basis.

          1. WMB prayed to his angel
          2. WMB said we should not eat eggs
          3. WMB said a woman who cuts her hair can be divorced
          4. WMB prohibited blacks and whites to marry
          5. WMB said illegitimate children do not go to heaven
          6. WMB said encouraged people to pray to his picture
          7. WMB said John wept for Joy when he wept because there was no one worthy
          8. He said there cannot be two prophets at the scene at the same time which is wrong.
          9. He thought that the black people (under Martin Luther King) should not campaign for more privileges and that they had to be satisfied with what they had.
          10. WMB officiated his brother’s weddings muliple times (Edward/ Melvin) after they had divorced. Did he intrinsically believe what our polygamy brothers gather from “Marriage and divorce”?

          My brother, I have decided to lay hold on the Bible after laying down all other extra-biblical literature. Mormons have them and their prophet Joseph Smith also called himself Elijah and so did Alexander Dowie. Charles T Russel of the Watchtower inserted himself in Rev 10:7 and had loads of failed prophecies where he predicted the coming of the Lord and constantly updated his prophecies. I enjoy debating with people who know what they are talking about. Do your homework next time.

          God bless
          Im praying for you fervently

          1. Elisha,

            You said “ do your homework next time.” Wow. So we are now nothing in your eyes. Notice the tone I was using. I see it’s not reciprocal. So let me end.

            I can answer everyone of your above questions, mind you your points are repeats of Rod and Collins.

            So you said you are praying for me. Deal, I also pray for you.

            Bro Lincoln

            God bless

        2. My brother,

          I appreciate your sincere comments. God bless you.

          If I may suggest, Bro. Branham, in reference to his sign in the hand gift, first stated the angel told him to take the person by the hand and wait and the Holy Spirit would call it out.

          Later he said “he guessed” the diseases many times when using the gift.

          Which was it?

          In addition, where in the canon of scripture or in the history of prophetic gifts did a prophet “guess” when using a gift?

          Also, where is the word of God which explains a 0.3333333% margin of error in discernment and specifies God as a data analyst?

          In the love of Christ

  9. Hi Wisper

    Appreciate your effort. Whatever dialogue, should help….

    You cite Genesis 15:13 & Exodus 12:40 as contradictory, hence worth tagging “failed prophecy”.

    It’s common knowledge that Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) was not an Israelite. It should not be that taxing to deduce that Abrahamic era precedes that of The Law by over 500 years. How you choose to retrospectively pursue Abraham accusing him by The Law he of which he absolutely knew nothing of, is astounding.

    Exodus 1:7, clearly states that, children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them, over the tenure of Joseph.
    This, notwithstanding 400years of affliction and captivity (Genesis 15:13), when a Pharaoh without knowledge of Joseph’s exploits assumed power, I’m sure is a satisfactory explanation to critics, Christians, Jews and the like, except yourself.

    How you, (I don’t know anyone else), insist there’s contradiction in Genesis 15:13 & Exodus 12:40, is most amazing.

    ..and of Elijah, who, taken by heavenly chariot (rapture? am I missing something??), having anointed Elisha with a spirit of Elijah? Well,… that speaks for itself.

    Wisper, you also made strong, damning accusations of Rod regarding him splitting his former church. In light of his response, do you still stand by your statement?
    ..and of course, explanations of numerous failed visions/prophecies?

    Cheers

    Tony M

    (Edited)

  10. Pastor Gwena why are you defending your prophet who was a human being? I think you are only supposed to answer questions which were raised about William Branham ‘s lies,false prophecies etc.By defending WMB who was a human being it seems as if you treat him as an infalliable persorn.I have never heard of a Christian pastor who prepared a whole sermon to defend his prophet ,a human being when he is being accused of wrong doing.By defending WMB you are trying to creat an impression which shows that WMB ‘s prophethood is above reproach even if flaws are found in his ministry.In Christianity there is nothing like defending a mere human being.Mr Gwena what is required from you is to consider having a public interview with Rod and Jonh if you are ready ,but you must be prepared to answer direct questions about WMB ‘s discrepancies rather than introducing a new topic which is “bible erros discussion”.You are dieverting the whole topic of WMB to a more bible discussion.Mr Gwena you are giving an impression which suggest that everyone who can lie and creat false stories like what WMB did can also be labelled as a prophet because in the bible there are errors.I think you are misleading people.

  11. Hello Lincoln
    The Lord bless you and many thanks again for taking the time to reply. It was a very well considered response. You are 100% right I don’t base my belief in Christ fully on his word and agree completely that there is very little evidence out with the word. It is indeed a revelation. Saying this can I please ask two questions.
    In your reply you say –
    “Tony you got to understand how God works, sometimes God wants to be followed not because of a newspaper cutting or county records but by Faith. Faith is the basis our Faith. The evidence we have that is bolder than any Newspaper cutting is we see the same miracles on those tapes manifesting in our lives.
    You said Jesus took the time to appear to 500 as evidence of his Resurrection. However Tony we were not part of that 500 and we believe he is risen by Faith ,which is Revelation. Evidence can only take us so far but there is a point where Revelation has to be the basis of what we believe.”

    My questions are

    1) are you suggesting that I believe in the Testimonies and words of William Branham despite the lack of supporting historical evidence, in the same way I believe in the Words and testimonies of our Lord as laid out in his word?

    2) Are you suggesting I believe in the ministry of William Branham in spite of the lack of historical evidence for some of his key claims, in the same way I believe in the Ministry of Jesus as expressed in the bible?

    God bless you brother I look forward to your thoughtful and considered reply.
    Tony

    1. Sorry Lincoln
      I meant to say –
      The Lord bless you and many thanks again for taking the time to reply. It was a very well considered response. You are 100% right, I base my belief in Christ fully on his word and agree completely that there is very little evidence out with the word. It is indeed a revelation.

    2. Tony,

      The Word says believe in your prophets and you shall prosper. I have and will never elevate Prophet to level of Jesus Christ. However what many fail to see is that God has and will always use men to reveal himself. Most of what we have as New Testament was actually written by one MAN. The Law by one MAN. If the accounts of our Kord Jrsus Christ were all written by men ; sounds pretty fancy for people to say I follow Jesus and not a man and yet God has always led his children through men yielded to his Will and Purpose.

      I am sorry that not matter what I say you have probably written off the prophet. I am sorry we have different testimonies about this Message. The Message is my comfort , through this Message healed of painful asthma and recently was healed of yet something else. My dad was healed in this Message.I have seen too much good in my Life from this Messsge to disbelief it.

      Tony will remember you in prayer.

      God bless
      Bro Lincoln

      1. God bless you my brother
        Jesus is my only comfort. In the words of a beautiful song. He walks with me and talks with me and tells me I am his own.
        Having witnessed genuine healings outside the message I don’t see God as restricted to one group. The word says he gives his gifts severally as he wills. All God’s Gifts are given by grace and not that any nan should boast.
        No matter who you are, or how big your ministry the gifts are Gods for his glory.
        I look unto Jesus the author and finisher of my salvation. It was hard to see Bro Brahman in he light of recent facts. I still love him. We are indeed all just sinners saved by grave It was incredibly hard to make a decision and leave the message, it was also my comfort.
        Please don’t think I am trying to disrupt or take your comfort away. Each man has to chose for himself. I just want people to be presented with all the evidence. Not just the one sided picture we were presented in the Message
        The lord richly bless you and all your family.
        Until we meet at Jesus feet
        Your brother in the Lord
        Tony

  12. Sorry Lincoln
    I meant to say –
    The Lord bless you and many thanks again for taking the time to reply. It was a very well considered response. You are 100% right, I base my belief in Christ fully on his word and agree completely that there is very little evidence out with the word. It is indeed a revelation.

    1. Tony,

      God bless you.You have a fine Spirit and I am grateful for your civil and brotherly approach in the way you spoke to me.

      From the depth of my heart “God richly bless you !”.

      Salem
      Bro Lincoln

  13. Well, this conversation is like running out of steam ….
    So this is to Pastor Wisper Gwena, his followers, his supporters and those who believe and reverence the Bible as the Word of God – in short Message Believers & Ex-Message Believers.

    Shall we therefore agree at this time that there’s absolutely no contradiction in the following scriptures:Genesis 15:13 & Exodus 12:40?

    Genesis 15:13 (Complete Jewish Bible, AKJV, Greek Septuagint Bible)
    13 Adonai said to Avram, “Know this for certain: your descendants will be foreigners in a land that is not theirs. They will be slaves and held in oppression there four hundred years. .(Complete Jewish Bible – CJB).
    13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; (AKJV).
    13 And it was said to Abram, Thou shalt surely know that thy seed shall be a sojourner in a land not their own, and they shall enslave them, and afflict them, and humble them four hundred years (Greek Septuagint Bible).

    .
    &
    .

    Exodus 12:40 (AKJV, Greek Septuagint Bible) – this to show good times in Egypt.
    40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. (AKJV)
    40 And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in the land of Egypt and the land of Chanaan, was four hundred and thirty years (Greek Septuagint Bible).

    .
    &
    .
    Exodus 1:7 (AKJV, Greek Septuagint Bible)
    7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them (AKJV).
    7 And the children of Israel increased and multiplied, and became numerous and grew exceedingly strong, and the land multiplied them (Greek Septuagint Bible).

    Is it clear to all that 400years of Genesis 15:30 only references years of affliction and captivity suffered by Israelites?
    Is it also apparent that 430 years refers to time spent sojourning (good times and bad times)?

    Can we therefore conclude that there’s no contradiction between Genesis 15:13 and Exodus 12:40?
    Can we also safely dismiss Pastor Gwena’s use of the above to justify William Branham’s failed “Thus saith The Lord”?

    Can we further dismiss Pastor Gwena imposition of Mosaic Law, namely Deutronomy 18:20 on Abram as misguided? (Abram never lived within Mosaic Law context, nor was he ever subject of it; as such, should under no circumstance be charged to be a false prophet like William Branham)?

    Yes we can!

    Like William Branham often said:
    “I love to read God’s Word, because It is right. And my words will fail, like any other man’s word. But God’s Word can never fail.”
    54-0228E – Looking For Jesus
    .
    Let’s not be found fighting, demeaning & twisting for whatever reason, to our own liking The Bible, God’s Word.
    It’s an anti-Christ spirit – period!
    Stop it!

  14. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    THE LORD REBUKE THEE!
    God’s Word in its simplest form?
    He vindicates his Word by bringing it to pass!
    Praise his Holy Name! The Lord Jesus Christ!
    You think there isn’t anyone to fulfill the Word for the hour? Remember the bride wasn’t separated from God yet, so all accusations of the bride goes against Jesus, and when Satan came against Jesus coating the Word! He found out that wasn’t Moses! Come against the Bride and Satan will find out the same thing! Remember he doesn’t come back as Lamb, but a Lion!

    1. Hello Jeff
      I agree. The Lord vindicates his word by bringing it to pass. That’s exactly why we are questioning WB prophecies that didn’t come to pass.

      God bless you
      Tony

  15. The modern religious leaders are jealous because of the way brother Branham’s followers esteem his inspired messages. I don’t have to seek truth somewhere else for his messages answer it all.

    1. That’s your best argument? We’re jealous?

      That is so far from the truth. Why don’t you tell us how it is you can ignore Deut 18:20-22 and say the municipal bridge vision, the brown bear vision, and the African meetings vision were all fulfilled. If you can’t tell us, then how are you not being willfully ignorant???

  16. WMB is not God but he was more than a prophet , you guys you get it by Education thats why you miss it

    Pray for Revelation

  17. Rod
    all that staff about the tent and brown bear vision are there for the crows and hawks to miss it the Eagles know it all its in plain view that WMB was a sniper so it had to be like that for the serpent’s seed to miss it God uses various tactics to get his own

    1. It’s sad that no one ever gives a decent explanation of the failed visions. We’ve been asking for eight years and not one decent explanation yet. And we’re the ones who are deceived? I don’t think so.

  18. Rod,

    Your explanation of the 400/430 years was excellent.

    If I may suggest, this dear pastor has skipped over a very significant issue where William Branham is concerned. WB’s prophecies were at times proceeded with “mark my words” or “write it on the flyleaf of your Bible” and then continue with the alleged specifics of the “thus saith the Lord” prophecy. One example of this is the India prophecy.

    We have discovered, by WB’s own admission, the prophecy failed because of his alleged failure to follow another element of the prophecy. If I recall he was to go to Africa first, then India. His details and explanation of the failure gets fuzzy and certainly does not meet the Biblical mandate of a divine prophetic word.

    Nevertheless, with your explanation of the 400 years coupled with another 30 years does not invalidate the accuracy of the word. The 400 +30 only serves to provide a clear bigger picture of specific details. It does not mean the word failed.

    Example: If one time I say I was born in 1956 and on another occasion you heard me say I was born February 6, I have not contradicted myself. Research would show I was born February 6, 1956 when combining the facts.

    This is what you demonstrated with the 400 + 30 years; just combining the facts.

    In WB’s case, he was specific about the facts of the India prophecy and included the added emphasis to “mark my words”.

    He did not include a disclaimer stating in the event I fail to do “whatever”, I am excused for a false prophecy.

    The precedent established in scripture, and even stated by WB himself, if God sends you “he will protect you…he is obligated”. This is confirmed by Moses. Moses was told to speak to the rock. Out of anger he disobeyed and struck the rock…but, water still came out of the rock. God protected his word.

    Why did the same alleged God fail to protect the failed prophecies of WB? These pastors should look closely at the big picture including all the specifics rather than as you and John discussed, attempting to twist scripture to fit a failed narrative.

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